A real crisis

[Clayton J. Beck III]

Hi Patty, I am very encouraged by Marvin's statements. There is a plethora of videos being produced today which give the impression that all paintings should be done in a single session in 3 hours. While I'm a big fan of Alla Prima paintings and studies it is to be understood that there is simply only so much painting that can be done in a single sitting. The more complex ones thought process is and the more complex ones handling of paint his, the longer the process to create will be. No time limit should be put on a painting. It is finished when you said what you came to say.

Marvin, thank you so much for printing these images. I tell my students this is one of the most important Sargent's that we can study. Fortunately for us, unfortunately for the sitter, Sargent's subject died shortly after this setting. There is a nearly identical portrait of his brother done at the same time that was finished. We get a fantastic opportunity to compare that to side by side and understand the process that Sargent went through to get to his final work.

I am sure the Cleveland workshop will be fantastic for you, I would love to be a fly on the wall.
Clayton

[Patricia Joyce]

Laurel, Clayton and Marvin,
How to thank you for your input, it is invaluable. First off, sorry if I gave the impression that I started and threw out four canvasses in one day, this has been a difficult single commission that I have started and abandonded four times over the course of a year.

But after reading your comments, especially yours, Marvin, I should never have destroyed my painting yesterday. I know it will help me immensely to take your workshop again. I may be your most active workshop attendee Marvin, probably taken more workshops with you than any other student you have! But I learn so much and unfortunately, I forget so much in between

Well, I am now encouraged to begin again.
Ever the struggling student......

[Sara Lasso Lopez]

It is said that when you really want to do something, you can do it. But actually it has been proved that it is possible to want to do something too much and turn the positive motivation into a counterproductive negative emotion. I

[Natalie Hunsaker]

Great information here. I had no idea Sargent worked in layers! 80 sittings? Wow. This actually gives me a lot of courage for a couple projects I have up my sleeve.

Patty, I just gotta say, though--as one who doesn't get as much time as I'd like to paint (yet)--you are not alone. I have thrown out 4 paintings in a day, too. It seems to me that painting comes in spurts where I'll create a 4 or 5 pieces i really like and then go through a slump where I bomb a few. Thing is, though, I've noticed as I continue my slow upward climb, my bombs are better than my good ones used to be. It's merely my eye that has become more picky. This is a good thing.

So, if great works come after large numbers and many bad paintings, count your failures as simply steps to your next great success!

[Clayton J. Beck III]

Natalie, Sargent only used that many sittings as a young man with no commissions lined up. Eight to ten sittings for men and ten to fourteen for women. An early example of a brother and sister is said to have taken 90 + sittings but this was never the case after about 1887. Lady Agnew of Locknaw (one of the greatest in my mind) was 6 sittings.

As Schmid says, eventually you stop turning out the 'turkeys'. It just means that your mistakes are personal short-comings rather than technical ones. But this requires painting a lot until it becomes as speech. You never think about sentence structure when you begin a sentence but somehow it is correct.

Most people rarely paint as often as they speak and often don't start out with a good enough teaching in painting structure. They repeat their insufficient fundamentals until they are habit, just as poor sentence structure. Him and I, ain't, ekcetera ... all sound normal to the person speaking. Poor painting structure is the same and should always be examined in the fundamentals to find the real problems.

Sorry 2 am, probably rambling. Hoping we all paint inspired and with humility.

[Tom Edgerton]

Patty--

Every painting goes through a period of looking pretty bad. When I first started painting, this used to throw me. Now I've built up enough working history and self confidence to know that if I take a breath and keep going, things will sort themselves out.

I paint badly when I'm tired. Forcing the painting at that point usually makes the process go from bad to worse. I either quit for the day, or put that painting against the wall and work on something else. When I come back to it, things go better.

Trusting all of this, and knowing myself and how I work, has reduced the times I've had to start over to the point where it's fairly rare.

All best--
Tom

[Richard Budig]

Patricia . . . for what it's worth, I often find my work improves with a "time out" from the easel. Some of my time outs have been a year or more, but usually, it is more like a couple of weeks to several weeks.

Also, I discovered long ago that my paintins go through stages starting just after the block in . . . kind of bad, pretty bad, and really awful. Some of these stages persist for awhile. However, usually shortly after the really awful stage, it suddenly blossoms, which never ceases to please me.

I do a version of Marvin's approach. I almost always start with what I call a color study . . . usually a small (3X5 or so) blocky thing with no detail. But I pay attention to placement, value and color. If this little thing carries across the room, the painting usually goes well, despite that always in-my-face awful stage. If you're sure of your drawing, shapes and distances, press on.

[Michael Fournier]

This is a old thread at this point but I felt I would add a bit for people who may read later on.

I know this thread started about Painting after not working with paint for awhile and the best way to work that out is to paint more.(Or for some you may need more painting instruction to help work on your painting skills more.)

But I also find find that I can trace problem paintings back to poor preparation. Not bad stages as you go but paintings that never seem to be getting any better no matter how long you work on them.

First off I had been away from my own art for about 5 years now Due to a combination financial obligations and mental illness. I broke down mentally and could no longer paint at all. for about 2 years I struggled I would start and then start again never finishing anything and then go into deep depression. Since my art was how I earned my living you can see how not being able to finish anything could be a problem. I had to give it up add do something else to earn a living. It was artistic paralyses due to depression and it is very hard to survive as a full time artist when you can't finish a painting.

So in addition to therapy I was building homes for a living (took the pressure off trying to earn a living from art) but I feel that time served me well and through that I can draw this analogy of home building and painting.

The start of a well built and well designed house is a Architects drawings in painting is it a combination of studies, sketches, knowledge of your subject, good reference, Lighting, painting from life. In painting you are the Architect you must have a solid plan before you start building.

The next step in building a house after the plan is a solid foundation. Now in a house this is both the actual concrete base, But is is also your knowledge of carpentry and building materials and your skill with your tools. In a painting the foundation is also the actual base a well prepared canvas or board as well as your knowledge of your materials and skill with your tools.

The next step in a house is the framing in a house the framing is the structure it provides the shape of the house and if not done right the house will fall down. No matter how expensive the finishes on top of a poor frame the house will not last. In painting your drawing is the frame and if your drawing is not good no amount finishing touches or quality of paint or canvas is going to save the painting.

But if you combine a solid foundation a great plain and all the best finishes you have a house frank lloyd Wright would be proud of. Same with a painting you must have a great plain a solid foundation and frame and then and only then can you decorate it.

If a painting is not getting any better no matter how long you work on it you can usually trace the problem back to one of these basic stages.

I hope this helps it also takes knowledge to be able to sort out where the problem lies but it is pretty safe bet if you have had pervious success that the basic foundation is there so it most likely lies with the planing or the lack of knowledge of your subject

If you only saw a elephant once in your life you would have a hard time painting one in it's natural environment convincingly even if you had a photo all you could do is produce a painted copy of that photo not produce a painting the captures the strength and majesty of a elephant in nature. To do that you would have to travel to where there are elephants and spend time observing them and their surroundings.

In portraiture you can paint from a photo of someone you have never met and get a limited likeness you can even produce a attractive painterly expression of that photo but unless you meet the person spend some time getting to know them observe them from different angles under different lighting, interact with them in person you can't really capture that person. you can only paint what you know and see from the one photo.

The beginning of this thread was about painting vs Drawing and not having painted in awhile and having trouble painting again and I can relate to that as I have started painting again myself and I am thinking of returning to my art full time. (my depression is under control with therapy)

I was not expecting too much from my first painting in 5 years but I knew I had To paint in order to get my skills back in shape. But I am not going to jump straight into a attempting a finished painting first I need to go back and build that foundation again.

People have asked me if I felt my Art school degree was a waste since I had not been working as a artist and I said no because my time in school taught me more then just the basics of art it taught me how to learn how to work on a skill how plan out a project solve problems and to build a foundation for life and that you never stop learning.

I hope this helps someone else out there struggling we all have those moments for me it meant taking a break completely for a long period I am not up to where I was before. Just like the saying "it is like riding a bike you never forget"
But even Lance Armstrong is not going to be able to win a race if he took years off then started riding again no he would need to train to get those muscles used to being used again.
So no I have not forgotten how to paint my painting skill are just out of shape.