The Munsell Student Color Set

[Allan Rahbek]

Originally Posted by Richard Murdock

I've been looking for a downside to using Munsell since I started, because everything has one, right? I haven't found but one yet, and that is when I really hit a mix perfectly I am sometimes guilty of forgetting to clean the test bit off the chip because it blends in so well. Other than that, well, I haven't found any downside.

Allan seems to be bothered by the red/blue nature of Munsell's primary red, and goes on to talk about primaries being the colors that can't be mixed from others. That is just about any color at its highest chroma. That means there are perhaps 40 primaries.

Primaries make no difference to a painter, unless he/she is going to hamper themselves by attempting to mix all colors from three. It won't work. One could not mix a 10YR 8/14 from primary red and yellow. What about 5GY 7/12? That's a hard color to hit. Could I do it with primary blue and yellow? I don't think so, since the highest chroma mixes have to be perfectly clean and start as close as possible to the target mix. Since the primary blue is also at chroma 12, and 5GY 7/12 is a warm green-yellow it's likely that chroma would be lost using primaries to mix it. And then there are neutrals. The neutral mixes must also be very clean. How would Allan mix a value string of neutrals from just three primaries?

The idea of using primaries to mix all of ones' colors is wrongheaded. Why wouldn't one use a color that is close to the target color to mix with, instead of trying to create everything from three basic colors? Why not just put out an eye and tie a hand behind one's back? Munsell leads to clarity, not confusion.

The Munsell wheel is based on real pigments, so if you can find the target in the book it can be mixed.

Hi Richard,
I always like to discuss theory's so your reply is much appreciated.

First I would like to state that I believe that I can agree in most of the Munsell system. The grey strings and how colors are valued in the system. It's obvious that a yellow is lighter than red and blue.

But I just don't understand how you can nominate a mixed color to be a primary one and much less 40 primary's.

I don't use primary's to mix colors because I don't have them ! My blue is a bit reddish and my red is bluish plus a little yellow and so on, because I use the
availeble pigments Ultramarine blue and Crimson red and I have never thought about them as primary's - but I know where they are placed on the theoretical color system.
It's like a compas with North, South, East and West - I don't need to go there, but I know where it is.

I am still waiting to learn.

Marvin, could you please explane to me, in a popular way, what it means that "The traditional color wheel is limited because it is optically incorrect".

[Richard Murdock]

Allan, using your definition of a primary color, one that cannot be mixed from another, there are more than 40 colors out at the extremes of chroma, and to mix them correctly one must start with colors as high or higher in chroma, and as close as possible to the target. Again, Munsell is based on pigment, not theory. We paint with pigments, not light.

There are many color theories, so I am not certain which theory you refer to when you say, "My blue is a bit reddish and my red is bluish plus a little yellow and so on, because I use the availeble pigments Ultramarine blue and Crimson red and I have never thought about them as primary's - but I know where they are placed on the theoretical color system."

There are reds -- such as in a strongly lit dark red rose -- that cannot be painted from any crimsom available, unless the painter is willing to accept lower chroma than is in the rose. Although ultramarine is very useful there are blues that cannot be painted from it.

[Enzie Shahmiri]

Hi Allan, it is very nice of you to offer your advise, but to call Munsell a "false prophet" and advising me to not waste my time, meant to me that you did not take the time to find out who Munsell is, what is theory is about and that you seem to think I don't know what I am talking about. IF my reply seemed defensive, it might be that I am overall getting a bit tired of having my patience tested.

Not one to believe in putting one system down over another, I offer what I have learned or am learning to those who are interested. I do not advocate following anybody's advise blindly, but recommend we each try new things to find out if there is anything to be gained that can be applied to the style we work in.

I am not teaching, nor preaching but sharing my knowledge and work progress as one artist to another. I have several readers on my blog who like to follow this experiment and I have labeled the posts "Lessons 1,2,3,etc to make the process easier to follow.

Knowledge is power! The more we know as an artist the better we can make educated judgments on how to improve our own work.

[Marvin Mattelson]

Allan,

Red and green are not true optical compliments. Close but no cigar. Using the principles of simultaneous contrast, if you place, for example, a red card against a white field the eye tries to balance out the color red with it's optical compliment. If the red card is removed there will be a blue green after image.

The Munsell color wheel is based on optical compliments: yellow-green and purple, blue-green and red, yellow-red and blue, red purple and green, and blue-purple and yellow.

According to Philip Hale's book about Vermeer, published in 1913, the Boston artists (Paxton et al) were familiar with this concept.

[Steven Sweeney]

That there is more than one way to skin the color wheel cat is demonstrated by my printer, which produces gorgeous photo-quality images across the spectrum, not with blue, yellow and red inks, but cyan, light cyan, magenta, light magenta, yellow and black. That so-called CMYK model is yet just one model, particularly suited to printing technologies. But like first hearing that the flood story in the Epic of Gilgamesh predates biblical accounts, it

[Richard Bingham]

[QUOTE=Steven Sweeney] . . . the

[Richard Monro]

The problem I have always had with published color wheels is that they are theoretical and do not reflect true artist colors. I have found a true color wheel that finally is helpful to those of us who practice fine art. The real color wheel be found at:

http://realcolorwheel.com/colorwheel.htm.

[Allan Rahbek]

[QUOTE=Marvin Mattelson]Allan,

Red and green are not true optical compliments. Close but no cigar. Using the principles of simultaneous contrast, if you place, for example, a red card against a white field the eye tries to balance out the color red with it's optical compliment. If the red card is removed there will be a blue green after image.

The Munsell color wheel is based on optical compliments: yellow-green and purple, blue-green and red, yellow-red and blue, red purple and green, and blue-purple and yell

[Enzie Shahmiri]

Ah, Allan.... I see you are doing what I am doing. Mixing colors! Thanks for showing these samples.

[Marvin Mattelson]

Alan, if it works for you then that's all the validation you need.

It didn't work for me when I first struggled with painting theory and how to manifest it into practical technical terms. This was about 30 years ago. I was painting (or at least trying to paint) in acrylics when I discovered a new line of paint, Liquitex Modular Acrylics, based on the Munsell Color Notation System.

Somehow it all made logical sense to me because the tubes were identified by general hue names (red, blue, etc.) and values, as opposed to traditional packaging (Ulramarine) nomenclature. They also manufactured a set of neutral grays, to be used for reducing chroma.

The Munsell color wheel made sense. The logic of the relationships was so clear and gave me a big leg up. I could base my decisions on logic and not recipes. Within two years I was painting covers for Time Magazine and doing advertising campaigns for clients like IBM. I've tried to spread the word ever since.

Years later, I started to study the teachings of Frank Reilly with John Murray. Reilly based much of his methodology on his adaptation of Munsell, so it seemed a logical step in my evolution. This has, in turn, opened my eyes further and given me the foundation to develop my own ideas.