After Anthony Ryder

[Ngaire Winwood]

Mischa, thanks for your support. Are you saying that 1.1-1.4 are challenges in line making. 1.5-1.12 (construct). Plates 1.41, 1.42 and 1.49 are exercises for simple tone and value? Could you explain further how you used Bargue? I am just starting with 1.1 and now up to 1.3 and I was just going to keep doing them one at a time. Do you have a better suggestion on how to do all of them?

[Ngaire Winwood]

Oops sorry Mischa, I spelt your name wrong in my second last reply.

[Mischa Milosevic]

Plates 1,1 - 1,4 are a challenge for them self. They are advanced exercises.

The plates 1,5 - 12, and 1,41,42, 49 are the ones to start with for the study of construct, simple tones or values and how they relate to each other. Pick one amongst these and reproduce it to perfection. Perfect will force you to train your eye. Seek a critique after each step. Do your best not to mix the steps this is quite important.

Step one line drawing. Step two shadow shapes. Step three halftones. Step four will be perfecting all.

Remember, if you are serious about what you are doing and I believe you are than to much at once is counterproductive. So, one step at a time and you will be where you should be faster. We believe in you.

[Claudemir Bonfim]

Originally Posted by Mischa Milosevic

Plates 1,1 - 1,4 are a challenge for them self. They are advanced exercises.

The plates 1,5 - 12, and 1,41,42, 49 are the ones to start with for the study of construct, simple tones or values and how they relate to each other. Pick one among these and reproduce it to perfection. Perfect will force you to train your eye. Seek a critique after each step. Do your best not to mix the steps this is quite important.

Step one line drawing. Step two shadow shapes. Step three halftones. Step four will be perfecting all.

Remember, if you are serious about what you are doing and I believe you are than to much at once is counterproductive. So, one step at a time and you will be where you should be faster. We believe in you.

Hi Ngaire,
This is absolutely right!
You'll have a faster progress if you follow Mischa's advice.

[Ngaire Winwood]

Thanks Mischa, You have made Bargue a little clearer for me. To perfection you want, to perfection I will go (don't know how long it will take but I will do my best).

Being atelier trained do you still have your creativity intact in your work or has this type of training upset the balance, I ask because I read that sometimes atelier training (to perfection) stiffens an artist up and they lose their 'dither' (as per Harold Speed explanation)or 'freedom of individual interpretation' so to speak?

Hi Claudemir, any sleepless nights yet? Bet I can't wipe the smile off your face in a hurry!!! Thanks for your support.

[Michele Rushworth]

Ngaire, I admire your drive and dedication. You are showing us all that a determined artist can teach themselves to draw in any corner of the world, remote from any official schools or teachers.

You now have all the resources you could possibly need: the Bargue drawings, Tony Ryder's book .... and a pencil.

I wholeheartedly agree with Mischa and Steven's advice not to attempt too much too fast. If I were in your situation, I would go through the Ryder book step by step, page by page. Master the envelope idea. Make dozens of very accurate envelope drawings, THEN move on to blocking in. Only when you get great at one step should you move on to the next.

You asked:

Being atelier trained do you still have your creativity intact in your work or has this type of training upset the balance, I ask because I read that sometimes atelier training (to perfection) stiffens an artist up and they lose their 'dither' (as per Harold Speed explanation)or 'freedom of individual interpretation' so to speak?

I think the 20th century adulation of "freedom of individual interpretation" at the total disregard for artistic training has landed the art world in the mess it's currently in. Train yourself to see and draw as well as you possibly can. You will always be "you" inside and nothing could possibly make you lose your individuality or creativity if you don't want it to. The difference, after you thoroughly train yourself, is that you will then be able to precisely communicate any idea you so desire, and knock our socks off with the power of it!

[Mischa Milosevic]

Ngaire please excuse my many words,

I totally agree with Michele as per your question in regard to creativity. Atelier training has given me the basics that I needed and has not stiffened my creativity one bit. My freedom to express my self was stiffened by lack of proper training. Even though my work earned recognition before attending the academy I was not happy with quality and speed of execution.

Ngaire a person can express self in any way they chose but will others understand.

I am still amazed by Tony Ryder's work even though I bought his Figure Drawing book before attending the academy. Now after proper training I better understand and appreciate Tony's work.

In my humble opinion one of the best books for speed learning is The Human Figure by J. H. Vanderpoel and for fast on the spot sketching I recomend Fun With a Pencil by Andrew Loomis. What ever book they All seem self explanatory but are they really?


It is good to have all these books no question but the question is what it is and at what level a individual wishes to learn at.

A excellent foundation on solid ground, proper training, is the key. Build the house any way you like but when the winds come will your house stand.

We are here for you.

[Steven Sweeney]

I agree. Atelier training can't give you creativity (though it can open your eyes), and it can't take it away.

The brochure for the classical realism studio where I received instruction stated very explicity -- "The work is not creative, and it is not intended to be." The goal was to be able to accurately depict the subject, whatever the subject.

In a sense, we were acquiring the "vocabulary" of art, but we remained responsible for telling our own story.

The only risk to creativity, if at all, is that one's discipleship and obeisance to the training become rigid and unmindful. If your "creative" self wants to use an unorthodox composition, or adjoin non-complementary colors, or put terry tea towels and screwdrivers into a classical fruit-and-flowers scene, and you stifle that impulse merely on the basis that "That's not the way it must be done, the way it's always been done," there might be a sense in which your new skills could be seen to be holding you back, creatively. I have seen it happen, so I'm not going to say it cannot, but I think it's rare that a well-trained artist would feel constrained to use his or her skills in such service. The natural instinct seems to be otherwise. It is music theory that allows one to improvise, not the absence of it.

By the way, the fact that most examples of atelier work are characterized by a very tight finish has to do largely with the nature of the training. One would be expected not to practice piano scales with only 70 per cent accuracy. There is however, in classical realism, a strong impressionist "school," which demands no less skill in seeing your subject than does the highly finished work we're more apt to associate with the term "classical realism."

Lastly, as for measuring, it's just a tool. The coffee table built by the master woodworker is not the measuring tape or T-square he used. Some studios train you in the use of plumb lines and calipers to assist the development of your eye, and others do not permit them, insisting that they simply impede the progress and that the sooner you internalize the tools, the better. One system isn't "right," and the other "wrong." In the teaching studio, the instructor's ability to stand in the same place the student was standing and use the same measuring device (I'm thinking of a length of thread, as in the sight-size demo (here) I put together earlier) to double-check the student's work was an efficient means of "proving" to the untrained student (often resistant to instruction -- especially if a young male!) where he or she had gone wrong.

I'll bet Tony Ryder is still able to whip out some pretty fantastic quick sketches, "despite" his skill.

[Ngaire Winwood]

Dear Michele, Mischa and Steven

Thanks for your great advice, clarity and support. My admiration to you all here, for taking the time to share your knowledge so willingly.

I don't think I have realised the actual value of the books just yet. The excitement is racing in me when I can see my attempts progress from drawing to drawing. What a wonderful pleasure it is to learn about classical realism, even with the frustrations and isolation. I am so very thankful for SOG.

Yes, I do feel that a lack of skills can stiffen up an artist or hold them back creatively. Not having the skills to do what my mind and heart wants is the main reason I started my classical training. Sometimes, I do find it hard not being able to bounce questions off the cuff to a teacher, like in atelier training or apprentice. I suppose that is where an apprectice gets an advantage to ask the master, or atelier training comes in handy.

I will take all advice very seriously and in my stride. Thanks heaps.

(Synchronicity or what! I was just listening to 'I believe in you' on the CD by Il Divo as I wrote this. Hmmmm!!!!)