How much 'negative' space is too much?

Joan Breckwoldt · 11-29-2005, 11:46 PM

I've decided to keep this simple, it's getting way too complicated. So I'm taking out the cat. I need to keep this simple so I can be successful. I'll do a little painting of the cat for my daughter's room, just the cat.

I'm down to two choices. In the first one the color is better, more true to life. There isn't much room to her left, I would add some space in the painting on her left.

The second one is an example of what I would consider lots of space around the model. Too much? The color is a bit washed out, but I can get my daughter to come in here to look at her color.

She's holding a stuffed animal, that won't be there. That was the substitute for the cat since the cat had NO patience for photos.

I value all your opinions greatly and appreciate all the help with this portrait,

Joan

Alexandra Tyng · 11-30-2005, 10:19 AM

Joan, if you are going to eliminate the cat and just do a head-and-shoulders (all these decisions apparently happened after I had turned off my computer so I'm just catching up), I would definitely go for the first of the two. Her position in the frame is more dynamic, and actually the lack of space on her left doesn't bother me at all. You have a diagonal created by the slant of her head and her chest that creates a nice dynamic in the rectangle. That dynamic is diminished by putting her in the center and balancing out the negative space on all sides of her. I can really feel the difference. If you put in more space to the left, you are really just creating dead space that doesn't need to be there. By contrast, that triangle of space to the right needs to be there. That is my opinion!

Alex

Joan Breckwoldt · 11-30-2005, 03:26 PM

Dear Alexandra, Lacey and Linda,

I woke up this morning and turned on my computer and was overwhelmed by all the wonderful help I'm getting from such talented artists on this project. My plan was just to do the head and shoulders when I went to bed last night, but now I'm thinking I'll put in that cat after all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexandra Tyng

If you put in more space to the left, you are really just creating dead space that doesn't need to be there.

Alexandra,

I think you hit the nail on the head when you say this. I have been studying portraits on the Stroke of Genius site and yes, I don't want to put space around something just for the sake of space. I'll attach a little 12"x12" I did recently. Almost NO space around this girl with the glasses and braids.

Lacey,

Thank you for taking the time to fool with my photos! You have shown me how the cat can work. If it looked like he was about to slide off my daughters lap it was because he was. I think your idea of adding a hand somehow will solve the problem of the cat sliding off the page. I have a better photo of the cat which I'm going to try and use, I don't have photoshop so I've cobbled together my xeroxes from Kinko's to get an idea. I think this is going to work!

Linda,

Thank you for your thoughtful suggestions. I have taken your advice and studied some portrait paintings. I think my problem is that I like both, space and no space. I'm attaching a small painting I did of a friend (glasses and braids), she's a hip young woman and the close cropped format just worked for her. That was an easy decision. I guess I just don't want my portraits to be boring, and with that said I guess equal negative space around figures tends to make them boring? As you said, there are no rules, I just have to keep trying different things. I'm beginning to see where Photoshop could come in handy.

thank you all,

Joan

p.s. My daughter is wearing that wrinkled white shirt because I took this photo at 7:00 a.m. She already had on her dark blue uniform shirt for school and she didn't want to hold a white cat, so I told her just to grab anything and throw it on for a quick photo!

Alexandra Tyng · 11-30-2005, 05:13 PM

Joan, I didn't want to force you into a decision about whether or not to include the cat, but if you are considering it I will admit I like this scheme better. (As Linda said, it's all a matter of taste, or money, too, in the case of commissioned portraits.) I think If you could get that other hand in at the bottom right, you are on to something. I like the lean of her body in the first photos, but the position of the cat in the first photo has an odd anatomical illusion of having two left front paws, so I would take more photos of the cat to get a better "read" of his/her body. Anyway, in general these are great reference photos and I think something good is underway with this portrait!

Alex

Joan Breckwoldt · 11-30-2005, 07:47 PM

Thank you Alex for your reply. I think I can make the cat work, especially with so much help!

I have taken a few more photos, here are two.

I like the first one but I'm not sure what others would think? It certainly evokes emotion, laughter on my part when I see my daughter holding up that big cat. But I think a portrait should evoke some kind of emotion. And this isn't a commission, just something I want to do for myself. Though, point taken, I am trying to build a portfolio. I had my daughter stand and hold the cat for the first one.

In the second one my daughter has a nice expression, we've got the hand holding the cat and the cat in a pretty good position. Though his face could be better, I can fix that.

I like both of these as they are and wouldn't have to cobble together photos, which makes me more comfortable with this whole process. On, except improve on the cats expression in the first one.

Thank you, looking forward to what y'all think about these.

Joan

Joan Breckwoldt · 11-30-2005, 10:10 PM

One last photo. I took the second photo and I cropped it some. What do you think? Maybe with some work on the cat, but how is this composition?

Joan

Michele Rushworth · 11-30-2005, 10:31 PM

Here's my two cents on all the various subjects that have come up in this thread:

I think more space around a subject makes it look more like a portrait and less like a snapshot. I also think it's a bit more elegant. I'm tending to want to put more space around my subjects in my current work, too. Purely subjective, of course. Lots of empty space does make for a big canvas or a small head size, things that some of my clients would prefer to avoid, though.

I love cats. That said, lose the cat. At least that's my thinking. With the cat it becomes a double portrait and that means both subjects have to be posed properly, not looking awkward, not looking like they want to be somewhere else, etc. If the cat doesn't look great in the photo you won't be able to make it look great in the painting. It will completely distract from the excellent job you do with your daughter.

I recommend you use a tripod. Almost all the shots are blurry.

I'd suggest that you might want to consider stretching your own canvases. It's not hard. Pre stretched canvases generally are of an inferior quality, and also give you much less flexibility for compositions. Hardly any of my compositions would fit a standard size canvas.

I also highly recommend you get Photoshop, or some less expensive competitor, and a photo printer. Maybe you could ask Santa. There is an absoutely HUGE benefit to being able to size, crop, compose your own reference, in high quality color, whenever you want it. I literally couldn't work without it.

Keep us posted on how this progresses! I look forward to seeing how you work all these issues out.

Lacey Lewis · 11-30-2005, 10:43 AM

Hi Again!

I wish I had been able to keep up with this thread yesterday! The subject is so interesting to me.

First of all, I like the cat a lot. I think it's because I, personally, love my kitten who is my first pet cat, so I may just be biased in that way. Including the cat makes it more personal, special, and somewhat narrative to me. But, I understand how taking him out simplifies things!

If you are going to do it without the cat, I agree with what Alex said. The 1st one of the batch with no cat looks good to me, and I would not add any more negative space behind her, to our left.

Here is a really poorly illustrated idea if you want to keep the cat! (Nudge, nudge.) Maybe the cropping will work if you include one or both of your daughter's hands. I feel like the cat is floating, or going to fall off the scene in the 1st picture that you posted... there is visual tension because of that for me and that is why the cat is distracting me there. I think if you could use a hand or both hands to show that the cat is being held up, sort of frame the cat, and then direct the eye back up to the face, it would be a darling composition. Just the one hand that I have painted in would do the trick, I think.

Oh, and I hope that you don't mind me fooling with your photos.

Either way, I can't wait to see what you do!

Linda Brandon · 11-30-2005, 11:36 AM

Joan, it's easier for me to talk about what's "too tight" than it is to formulate a space rule -- though maybe there is one. The most important thing to remember is that these are essentially taste issues and how you, the artist, makes a selection based on all the choices out there. Lots of artists crop tight and it's part of their style; they make it work very well for them and the people who buy their work love it. Look at lots of portraits - not photos of people, look at paintings - and decide which ones look right to you. Do the subjects feel lost in space, or maybe lost amidst all their belongings, or do they maybe feel pushed up into your face? The most important thing to remember when working from a photo is that you are not stuck with the parameters of the photo. You are the boss.

As far as your photos are concerned, I'd go with a three-quarter view with hands because it will give you some practice painting them and you'll also have a three-quarter sample to show potential clients. Your daughter is beautiful, what a wonderful model you have here.