Indian Red and Terra Rosa . . . what brands???

[Richard Budig]

Please tell me what you think are the best brands, or the brands of Indian Red and Terra Rosa (or, perhaps Venetian Red) that give the most color difference -- that is the "pinkest" and the "redest."

I use Grumbacher colors, mostly, but these two colors, to my eye, come out looking very much like each other, either when darkening them, or when lightening them.

I've seen pictures of palettes on this site in which these two reds are more delineated with Indian (the cooler) being more pinkish on the lightened end, and Terra Rosa being more "orange," or warmer, when lightened.

What brand(s) would you recommend, please.

[Debra Norton]

My brand of Indian Red is Winsor Newton, and it comes out "pinky." I've never used Terra Rosa (I'm an atelier student and we use a limited palette) but I'm guessing that my Light Red by Winsor Newton which comes out "red/orangy" may be similar to your Terra Rosa.

[John Reidy]

Richard-

WN. This is what I use and it's exactly as you describe - Indian Red is "pinker" when lightened and the Terra Rosa is more "orange". I prefer the terms "cooler" and "warmer".

[Richard Budig]

Deb, John:

Thank you so much. It is out there in the tint ranges where my Grumbacher brand seems to meld together. As john says, I would like my Indian to stay cool all the way out into the tints, and the Terra Rosa/Venetian Red to stay warm.

Deb, please tell me about your limited palette. I've always thought they were the best, certainly from a unity point of view.

Thanks to both of you. I'll pick up some WN soon and try it.

[Allan Rahbek]

Richard,
White tend to cool the reds. So if you use a cold white like Titan White for the Indian Red you will get the pinkest red and use a little Naples Yellow, in the lightest values of Venetian Red in addition to the Flake White that I assume that you use for the normal White.

Allan

[Garth Herrick]

Richard,

Of the 670 tubes of oil paint laying around my studio, I have selected 25 representative tubes of earth reds ranging from Caput Mortuum to Venetian Orange. Some of these tubes are new but many are old, some going back some sixty years!

I have grouped them onto a linen canvas chart, showing in each, the mass tone, transparency gradations, and tints both with a pure flake white and a pure titanium white.

There is such a diffrence in tints made with flake white than with those made of any others, including titanium and zinc. The flake white tints are what historic painters would have been familiar with, as even a century ago, no artist even had titanium white. Flake white makes very warm tints while the other whites push the tints much cooler.

I was surprised to find that each tube was an unique original color, with unique original characteristics. Even though several tubes from different manufacturers share the same color name, they are not in fact the same color; and I have concluded there is no standard color for such names as "Indian Red", "Terra Rosa", or Venetian Red". One just has to find the particular brands that appeal to one's color sense. Even the same color from the same brand and manufacturer will vary over time. What were formerly naturally occurring pigments are now largely syntheticly produced.

This is probably more than anyone wants to know, but here goes:

The list of paint samples on the chart (each is tinted with Old Holland Titanium White on top (right), and Vasari Flake White on the bottom (left)):

1. Pebeo Fragonard - Orange de Venise (note that this is not the same product as present day Fragonard oils).

2. Old Holland - Vleesoker (flesh ochre) (fortified with napthol red).

3. Williamsburg - Pompeii Red (from their special Italian earths range, a particularly intense natural pigment).

4. Schmincke Mussini - Lasur-Oxid-Rot ( a wonderful transparent red).

5. Gamblin - Transparent Earth Red (deeper and less orange than the Mussini).

6. Vasari - Scarlet Sienna ( a variety of burnt sienna).

7. Winsor & Newton - Mars Orange

8. Senelier - Rouge de Venise (I got this tube in 1982. It is a very vibrant warm light red).

9. Winsor & Newton - Venetian Red (This tube dates from the Sixties).

10. Grumbacher Pretested - Venetian Red (this tube is from the Eighties, and this color is a different animal than all the other Venetian Reds; more like an Indian Red!).

11. Shiva - Venetian Red (same vintage as above).

12. Vasari - Venetian Red (deeper and more subtle in tone).

13. Talens Rembrandt - Pozzuoli Earth (from the mid 1980's).

14. Winsor & Newton - Terra Rosa (a newish tube).

15. Winsor & Newton - Terra Rosa (a tube from the 1970's). They are nearly the same but the older one is a fraction warmer.

16. Grumbacher - Terra Rosa (this is one of the tubes that is at least a half century old. Nice color).

17. Talens Orpi - Light Red (really old! - Before Rembrandt!).

18. Talens Rembrandt - English Red Light (from the 1980's; cooler than the one above).

19. Winsor & Newton - Light Red (a lovely very warm red; 1970's).

20. Grumbacher - Mars Red (from the 1940's again; deeper in tone than the newer product below).

21. Grumbacher - Mars Red (1970's; brighter in tone).

22. Permanent Pigments - Indian Red (from the early 1960's).

23. Grumbacher - Indian Red (also from the 1960's; brighter in tone and fractionally warmer than above).

24. Talens Rembrandt - Caput Mortuum (from thw 80's)

25. Vasari - Caput Mortuum (deeper and more subtle than the Rembrandt).

The two large tubes are:

Old Holland - Titanium White (an absolutely pure Titanium White ..very rare these days!).

Vasari - Flake White (a premium pure Flake White).

OK! Now let's study the pictures!

Yours ,

Garth

[Debra Norton]

Richard, these are the paints we use, in the order we place them on the palette:

ultramarine blue
viridian
yellow ochre
naples yellow
cadmium yellow light
white (flake or cremnitz - I use cremnitz)
cadmium red light
light red
indian red
alizarin crimson
raw umber
ivory black

[Allan Rahbek]

Here is another sample of the influence of the White used.

The samples are made from Daler-Rowney Indian Red on top position and Daler-Rowney Venetian Red under.

The Whites are both a mixture of Titanium and Zinc. The left side mixtures are a made from Marie

[Allan Rahbek]

Today I went to town and bought some paints of another brand than usual.

The only Red ocher close to Venezian Red was Italian Red.
When I mixed it into White I discovered that it was less Red but more brownish, not much but not quite the Venetian Red I use.

What I did was to mix a little Cadmium Red into this Brownish Ocher and it turned into the Venetian I needed.

That

[Richard Budig]

I'm about convinced that the artists who have it made are those who pick a couple of reds and stick with them. I, too, have stumbled into red (and other colors) that were hardly a degree warmer or cooler than th eother. Those who stick with their colors get used to them and learn what they can do with them, it seems to me.

But, I think I may try your little trick and "kick it up a bit" by adding a smidge of something like cad red light to my Venetian just to see if I can't separate it a bit more from my Indian. Or, perhaps I should add a smidge of blue (or black?) to my Indian to separate it more from the Venetian.