Maroger

Kimberly Dow · 04-25-2005, 09:49 PM

OK - so no takers on this discussion?

Just a note for anyone who is reading with interest -

I went to the Studio Products website and asked a couple questions. One fella says to use no more than 10% of this in each pile of paint. Bill Whitaker had said he used 25%. I wasn't getting the even sheen I was looking for so I started using more. The sheen issue is better, but the paint dried on my palette so quickly that I had to throw a bunch out. That always hurts!

Virgil Elliott · 04-29-2005, 12:14 PM

Kim,

Michael Skalka is not in the business of selling products, whereas at Studio Products, they are. I would recommend paying serious heed to what Skalka says here, unless you don't care whether your paintings will change for the worse in the years to come.

Yes, it does get confusing when we hear about artists whose work we admire singing the praises of Maroger mediums. However, Rembrandt demonstrated very compellingly how well it is possible to paint without adding any resinous concoctions to oil paint. His medium was linseed oil, occasionally walnut oil. From a standpoint of archival quality, you couldn't do much worse than to add Maroger mediums to your paint. I have no doubt that you can paint every bit as well without it as with it. Do your collectors and your artistic legacy a favor by leaving such problematic substances out of your paints. You paint too well to sabotage your own works.

Virgil Elliott

Claudemir Bonfim · 04-29-2005, 01:01 PM

I know that David Leffel uses it and I'm sure Bill Whitaker knows a lot about it, maybe he could tell us more about this medium.

Kimberly Dow · 04-29-2005, 04:11 PM

Thank you Virgil for responding.

All this experimentation with mediums and supports is due to certain issues. I'd gladly go back to just paint and linseed if I could solve them...

I found I loved a flat smooth surface when I tried ABS. I have stopped using that because of the all the issues and advice I have read, (except a few small pieces I will finish). I found gesso panels which seemed to fit this OK and am ordering them through realgesso.com. But - these present their own problems. The initial sucking up of paint is not a big issue - but the glare on the surface is. In certain situations it is almost impossible to see the painting. Then there is the uneven surface from paints sinking in. I can fix the uneveness with retouch - but then glare is still an issue. If I could let my paintings sit for 6 months I could do a matte varnish, but I cant always do that. And I hear about issues with retouch as well.

Here is what I want - it is not as simple as it sounds....

I want something to put on my panel paintings as soon as they are dry to the touch that evens them out without too much glare. A nice even sheen from a product that has no issues with longevity.

Is this too much to ask, I beg you!?

Richard Monro · 04-29-2005, 05:22 PM

Kim,
I have great respect for Daniel Greene's technical knowlege and checked up on my notes from my study with him. He uses a mixture of 2 parts turpentine and 1 part stand oil (artist grade) as a medium. It does accelerate drying somewhat but should give you some of the properties you are looking for.

Michele Rushworth · 04-29-2005, 08:22 PM

Quote:

I want something to put on my panel paintings as soon as they are dry to the touch that evens them out without too much glare. A nice even sheen from a product that has no issues with longevity.

Me too! I paint on a non absorbent oil primed linen but I still get sunken in areas, of course. I use linseed to "oil out" dull areas, but then the finished painting is too shiny for my liking.

Virgil Elliott · 04-29-2005, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kimberly Dow

Thank you Virgil for responding.

All this experimentation with mediums and supports is due to certain issues. I'd gladly go back to just paint and linseed if I could solve them...

I found I loved a flat smooth surface when I tried ABS. I have stopped using that because of the all the issues and advice I have read, (except a few small pieces I will finish). I found gesso panels which seemed to fit this OK and am ordering them through realgesso.com. But - these present their own problems. The initial sucking up of paint is not a big issue - but the glare on the surface is. In certain situations it is almost impossible to see the painting. Then there is the uneven surface from paints sinking in. I can fix the uneveness with retouch - but then glare is still an issue. If I could let my paintings sit for 6 months I could do a matte varnish, but I cant always do that. And I hear about issues with retouch as well.

Here is what I want - it is not as simple as it sounds....

I want something to put on my panel paintings as soon as they are dry to the touch that evens them out without too much glare. A nice even sheen from a product that has no issues with longevity.

Is this too much to ask, I beg you!?

Kim,

Several things cause uneven gloss. One of them is thinning paints with solvent, which produces a matte effect, but the matte effect is uneven because some passages will have less solvent, and some more. Mediums with polymerized oils like stand oil or sun-thickened linseed oil will increase gloss, but usually unevenly, again, because there will be more of it in some passages than in others. Same with resin mediums.

I've found just using linseed oil as my medium, with no solvent and no resin of any kind, produces the most even degree of gloss, which is less glossy than what I was getting with stand oil mediums or resin-oil mediums. It's important not to add too much. Too much of any medium is not a good idea.

If your ground is very absorbent, it's best to add some linseed oil to the paints, as some of the binding oil will be drawn out by the absorbancy of the ground, which could leave the paint underbound unless there is a bit of extra oil in it to compensate.

Virgil Elliott

Kimberly Dow · 04-30-2005, 02:43 AM

Thanks again all.

When I was less experienced, this was so simple. I have a couple paintings that are 17 years old or so. I used oil paint and taught myself without doing even the most basic of research. When the paint was too thick, I thinned it with turpentine only. The paintings, although horrible in skill, still look fine. The richness of the oil is missing though because they are very matte from the turpentine. I never varnished them either.

The more I learn, the more confused I am.

Allan Rahbek · 04-30-2005, 07:43 AM

This problem with matte and glossy areas has much to do with how the ground is absorbing the oil from the applied paint layer.

When we use a very absorbing ground, as gesso, and start painting with more or less diluted paints, the oil will be absorbed in the gesso .

When the paint is applied uneven on the surface ( as it always is), it will dry with uneven speed. Thick paint will take the longest time to dry.

If we paint too soon on this uneven dry surface there will typically be three different surfaces :
1. The uncovered gesso with full absorbency
2. Parts that are painted with thin and now dry paint that will not be absorbent.
3. Parts that are painted with thick paint that are not yet dry. That is where the problems will show up because the ground is still absorbent.

When we paint on a not yet dry thick layer of paint, with another layer, the top layer will normally dry first, because it need oxygen to dry. The new layer prevent the bottom layer to dry so that it will be absorbent for a long time and drink the oil from the top layer, that becomes matte.

Good craftsmanship is to either paint wet into wet or wet upon dry. And when having a wery absorbent ground, priming it to be moderately absorbent.

Sargent advised to always paint wet into wet using no or little extra medium. I have only seen one of his paintings that suffer from cracks and gliding out of the top layer. That is his late self portrait.

Allan

Virgil Elliott · 04-30-2005, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kimberly Dow

Thanks again all.

When I was less experienced, this was so simple. I have a couple paintings that are 17 years old or so. I used oil paint and taught myself without doing even the most basic of research. When the paint was too thick, I thinned it with turpentine only. The paintings, although horrible in skill, still look fine. The richness of the oil is missing though because they are very matte from the turpentine. I never varnished them either.

The more I learn, the more confused I am.

Kim,

If seventeen years seems like a long time to you, enjoy your youth while it lasts. To me, seventeen years ago seems like yesterday.

Many of the problems that result from poor choices of materials and/or techniques do not show up in oil paintings for 80-200 years. Short-term, one can get by with just about anything.

Virgil Elliott