Your Thoughts about Orientalism

[Enzie Shahmiri]

Allan, I agree that you have to capture the soul regardless from which ethnicity you are taking your inspiration from and that you should implement your artistic touch to make a lasting impression.

You brought up the native Indians and I am going to use them to further the point I am trying to make. Unless you are invited to an Indian reservations and are granted entry to their special ceremonies are you truly reprenting "Western Art" if you paint them in their colorful costumes performing during a staged cultural event? Very seldomly do you see a Native American represented in art as anyone different then what our common age old perception of him is. In other words a man with feathery head dress and a hawk nose. I am of course exagerating, but I don't recall seeing paintings of a Native American as a teacher or engineer.

Thanks to a certain degree of typecasting we associate people with the images we have been presented about them. So as a "Western Artist" are we doing the Native American a favor by continuing to portray him as he lived in the 19th century, because we like the colorful and adventures looking images or should we show a true representation of him as he lives today? The same applies to the imagery of the Orient. You have to travel to very remote places and gain privileged access to paint people in exotic costumes and settings, otherwise you have to work from images of Miiddle Easterners in blue jeans (exaggerated to make the point).

[Tom Edgerton]

Fake 19th Century Orientalism painted today will still feel fake. Just as "staged" Western American art feels fake.

Just compare Remington with a lot of the idealized, "heroic" Western art being painted retroactively today. While the modern research and detail is unassailable, and the technique impeccable, you can still tell the truly observed, contemporary scenes from the "tricked up" nostalgia nearly every time. But different strokes for different folks.

Sargent's incredible watercolors of foreign scenes in Italy and Africa ring with truth and authenticity precisely because he was painting what was before him, not some idealized scene from his head.

For a look at some really fine painting and observation of foreign locales, check out the art and travel diaries of Scott Burdick and Sue Lyon. They've sent themselves around the world with their art. Some of it is very exotic, but always truthfully observed and immediate in feel.

http://scottburdick.com/avoriginals.htm and http://scottburdick.com/avorgnlsScott.htm

I don't know, Enzie, for me I think the contemporary Iranian in bluejeans would be a far more interesting and authentic image than some thinly staged 19th century costume drama.

Just my opinion, nothing else.--TE

[Sharon Knettell]

So many paintings, so little that is honest.

I am not a fan of recreating images of quaint natives in present day costume or recreations of days gone by. The trend toward the nostalgic, is intellectually dishonest and an easy prey for an artist who is too lazy to come up with an original point of view. Nostalgia is a dangerous trend, it is fascist, by its very nature. It is the kind of art that was promoted by Hitler in the Third Reich, charming quaint pictures of the perfect German family in their country costumes.

In that vein, I think the paintings of the Tibetans are exploitive, as are the colorful Indians of the West. I happen to have many Tibetan friends and I think that they would find these paintings condescending.

[Tom Edgerton]

Sharon--

Interesting reaction...

I can see your point if an artist were recreating false nostalgia for propaganda purposes, but if I go to another land, am I prohibited from setting up and recording the culture that is before me, especially if those being painted are aware of it? If I were there working, what constitutes a factual rendering versus a condescending one--what are "safe" choices versus ones that are not? At what point does this process become exploitive?

Is this any different from taking travel photos? Is this any different from taking photos of another culture for photojournalistic purposes and remuneration, as with National Geographic?

What if, for example, the scenes were a fairly straightforward depiction of rural China, and the artist is a white American? Does this change if the artist is Chinese-American? Does this change if the artist is a city-dwelling, middle-class Chinese native? Does this change if the artist is another rural Chinese native?

I'm not attacking your point of view; I'm merely asking for purposes of discussion and because I think a further parsing of your commentary would help me understand it better.

Thanks--Tom

[Michele Rushworth]

Portraiture as possible exploitation. Hmmmm... interesting idea.

In the movie "Girl with a Pearl Earring" the client who theoretically commissioned the portrait was certainly doing it as exploitation, but then he had already attacked her physically and wanted the portrait as a way of posessing her when he couldn't have her in reality.

Is it exploitation if I paint a portrait of a handsome male dancer (which I'm doing now)? Is it exploitation if other women admire his muscular form in the painting? Is it exploitation if he dances on the stage and women admire him then?

A fuzzy line....

[Allan Rahbek]

Originally Posted by Michele Rushworth

Is it exploitation if I paint a portrait of a handsome male dancer (which I'm doing now)? ....

I believe it is...if you think that he is handsome. But then again, he is probably aware that he is cute.
On the other hand you sort of balance the exploitations of beautiful women posing for artists of all sexes.... Sorry, just kidding.

The problematic is about what the artist is selling. Is it art or souvenirs ?

If I was an Indian I would be proud to have my portrait painted of a clever portrait painter and I would hate to be distributed as cheap souvenirs.

Allan

[Enzie Shahmiri]

Tom, thanks for the link: both artists have nice work posted.

I agree that art based on personal observation is by far more convincing and more able to withstand scrutiny over time then some fantasy imagery. I find nothing wrong with nostalgic paintings as long as the artists depicts something that they have personal knowledge of.

Having read many art history books, and especially books about Orientalism, it has come to my attention, how paintings are used by historians to reconstruct an era and it