Pre-primed or self primed, that is the question!

[Marvin Mattelson]

I would bet that the Claessens has rabbit skin glue. It's been used for centuries. The PVA size may be scientifically tested but it hasn't endured the test of time. I don't care what anybody says, there are no guarantees.

Science may come up with a new breath mint that will cause all oil painting to turn green when exposed to the fumes. Some things are out of my control. I try to stick with materials that have stood the test of time. If I do artwork that is deemed worthy, conservators in the future will know how to preserve it.

I'm also leery of canvas glued to boards. I worry about the glue and what will happen to the board. I definitely don't like alkyd mediums. The layers can delaminate. This is something I have experienced first hand! Never again!

I don't paint on plastic. Like the old masters, I don't use any medium other than linseed oil. I use high quality pigments suspended primarily in linseed oil and I depend on knowledge, good drawing, brush handling skills and common sense to achieve the best results I can.

In my opinion artists spend far too much time worrying about materials and not enough time learning their craft. The most wonderful studio and equipment will not make you a great artist. Not that these things aren't nice to have mind you, they are beside the point.

When I grew up I had a neighbor who owned every conceivable piece of photography equipment imaginable. He still took the worst photos.

At some point you have to trust somebody unless you dig up roots and berries, press your own oil and weave your own canvas.

I like the stretchers that Doak carries. Soho Artists Supplies carry the same exact ones. If I call them up I'm not on the phone for two hours. They're the ones I use. They are very light and very strong. I have never had any problems dealing with them and I've been using them for years. To date, I really like their lead primed portrait linen.

[Virgil Elliott]

Originally Posted by Sharon Knettell

Virgil,

One more question. He recommends copal as a medium as opposed to mineral spirits and as an ongoing kind of retouch varnish.
What is your opinion of copal used in both those applications.

Sharon,

Once again, it depends. Copal might be all right for use in small paintings on panel, where the increased gloss it produces does not cause a problem with glare, and where the increased ultimate brittleness it is likely to impart to the paint layer would be less likely to cause cracking than it could on a rigid panel, but there is the issue of how much medium one customarily uses. Too high a percentage of any medium is apt to cause problems. With copal there are a number of potential problems, though its advocates disagree, claiming that the proof that exists falls short of establishing that with absolute certainty. So far, none has been found in the paintings of the Old Masters, who seem to have been able to paint quite well with simple paints made from pigment and linseed or walnut oil.

I find it curious that so many painters of today consider it absolutely essential to paint with medium. It is better, in my opinion, to begin with paints that are fluid enough to be controllable under the brush as they come from the tube, or as close to it as possible, and only add a drop or two of linseed oil to soften them further where necessary. One can paint quite well with oil paints adjusted for consistency with linseed oil. Why complicate things if you don't need to?

Quality in painting derives from what is in the artist's head. It is not to be found in any magic medium.

I would not consider a purveyor of painting products an objective authority on painting products. It is not uncommon for people to mistake their beliefs for facts, and represent them as such. It is an important point to keep in mind.

Virgil Elliott

[Sharon Knettell]

Virgil,

I see your little green light is still on, SO before you get back to your work, WHAT oil paint are you currently using?

Ralph Mayer advocates the use of mineral spirits as opposed to linseed oil. This is indeed confusing!

[Virgil Elliott]

Originally Posted by Sharon Knettell

Virgil,

I see your little green light is still on, SO before you get back to your work, WHAT oil paint are you currently using?

Ralph Mayer advocates the use of mineral spirits as opposed to linseed oil. This is indeed confusing!

Sharon,

If only things in reality were as simple as people expect them to be!

In my #1 paintbox are paints from Blockx, but only Series 1 and Series 3, which are ground in linseed oil (earth colors and Mars colors, ivory black); Old Holland; Williamsburg; Michael Harding; Sennelier; (blues, Indian yellow, ivory black, cadmium yellow-orange, cadmium red-orange); Winsor & Newton (Flake White #2, Foundation White, Flake White #1, and a few others); Gamblin; Daniel Smith Autograph Series; Robert Doak: Archival Oils (Permanent Alizarine); Vasari; M. Graham (blues); Rembrandt (their old formulation) and a few things I have ground myself from dry pigment and linseed oil.

Regarding Ralph Mayer, his book was originally published in 1940, and was periodically updated until he died 26 years ago, so it does not reflect the last word in painting materials knowledge. Publishers will keep it on the market as long as it continues to sell, and they do not know or care how much of the information it contains is true, or how much of it is wrong. It is indeed confusing, especially when several noted authors disagree, which they do. Frederick Taubes, Ralph Mayer and Jacques Maroger all wrote books, and contradicted one another on many points. Then there are the other books by other authors, including Kurt Wehlte, Max Doerner, Charles Locke Eastlake, Abendschein, etc., and there is very little consensus of opinion among them on anything. Mark Gottsegen's "The Painter's Handbook" is the most recent, and the most reliable, though not 100% correct on everything, as Mark acknowledges. He has just delivered a manuscript of a revised edition to his publisher, to be released in perhaps a year, which should be the most reliable reference book for painting materials, since it reflects the present-day state of scientific knowledge, chemistry, etc. I haven't read the revised edition yet, so I cannot say whether I think he is right about everything, but we seem to see eye-to-eye on most of these issues when we discuss them. We are on the same ASTM subcommittee. I recall Mark saying that he now regards the original edition as correct about 75-80% of the time. New knowledge comes to the fore all the time, as new discoveries are made constantly, so any book is apt to become dated within a short time.

Mineral spirits is a solvent, not a medium, not a vehicle for binding pigment into paint. Solvents weaken the binding power of vegetable oils. One might get by with adding a little bit, but more than the bare minimum will weaken the resulting paint layer. It will also dull the surface to some degree. It is not a good thing to use as a medium.

Virgil Elliott

[Linda Brandon]

Originally Posted by Marvin Mattelson

I don't paint on plastic.

So you're using it as a cutting board after all!

[Allan Rahbek]

One of the good qualities of Linseed Oil is that it has the smallest molecules of all mediums, so that it will adhere to any surface better than all other.

When the Linseed Oil is absorbed in the surface it will obtain Oxygen and swell, which will strengthen the adherence. That is also why it can wrinkle if applied too thickly. (Paint with too much oil added)

Like Marvin, I have bad experience with Alkyd for priming.

I would never use Mineral Spirit in Linseed Oil. Better Vegetable Turps or Venetian Turps if I need a thin wash. Mineral Spirit will always make the paint matte and I believe that it spoils the linseed oil.

Allan

[Garth Herrick]

Dear Sharon and Michele:

For the last few years I have used Belgian oil primed linen made by Fredrix: Rix DP (111DP).

For whatever it is worth, I have no doubt at all when the label says it is lead primed that it is, because it has the distinctive smell characteristic of lead priming. Other whites and primers don't smell the same as Flake White.

Garth

[Virgil Elliott]

I asked Rick January, of Fredrix, whether his company still used lead priming on its lead-primed linen, and Rix specifically, and he confirmed that it was still being primed with lead.

My conservator contacts at the National Gallery have repeatedly expressed concern over the hide glue sizing of pre-primed canvases, which imposes fairly extreme changes in canvas tension as the glue expands and contracts in reaction to fluctuations in humidity. Ultimately, this can be expected to lead to cracking of the paint layer, after the paint film has stiffened with age. Some people don't care if this happens to their paintings, but I think it's important that they be aware of it, at least.

Virgil Elliott

[Alicia Kornick]

For what its worth, on page 55 of the latest Italian Art Store catalog they offer three styles of pre primed linen rolls.. Oil primed, acrylic primed and lead primed.
Their most popular portrait linen is AC260 and it states that it is double primed by hand.

The store is located in New Jersey, so maybe Marvin has had some experience with this.
Alicia

[Virgil Elliott]

Originally Posted by Sharon Knettell

Mr. Doak is indeed controversial and a high pressure salesman, but at least he was up front about the proper curing rates of lead primed canvasses. He also said another thing, which I think is true, that there is absolutely no regulation in the field of art supplies. The artist does not have a chance he said.

Sharon,

What regulation there is is in the form of ASTM standards, which are voluntary standards not enforced by law, but high standards of performance that must be met before any manufacturer can claim that its products conform to the pertinent ASTM standard. ASTM Standard D 4302 is the standard for Artists' Oil, Resin-Oil, and Alkyd Paints; D 4303 is the standard for lightfastness testing methods; D 5067 is the Standard Specification for Watercolor Paints; D 5098 is the Standard Specification for Artists' Acrylic Emulsion Paints, and D 6901 is the new colored pencil standard. We are currently drafting a standard for pastels. Some manufacturers do not care to meet ASTM standards, for reasons of their own, but most of the reputable major manufacturers do. I participate in the development of these standards as a member of the Subcommittee on Artists' Paints and Materials, representing the interests of artists.

The artist DOES have a chance of getting quality materials, by paying attention to whether the products he or she considers buying meet the ASTM standard for the product in question, where there is such a standard. And the more artists insist on that, the more manufacturers will be compelled to make sure their products come up to that level of quality. Case in point, pastels. Before we (ASTM) turned our attention to pastels, many of the pastels on the market, including some with exalted reputations, had an unacceptably high percentage of fugitive colors, i.e., colors that fade significantly. As soon as I showed the Subcommittee the results of my preliminary lightfastness tests, at least three Manufacturers began to reformulate their lines in order to improve the performance of their pastels, and there are sure to be others following suit before we are done. Until that started, pastellists did not express concern for permanence, so the companies used whatever pigments were cheapest, irrespective of whether they would fade or not. This same basic process took place with oil paints many years ago, then with watercolors, then acrylics, the end result in each case being improved quality of the products. So when enough artists demand it, the manufacturers will respond by providing it. Look for those ASTM labels.

There will undoubtedly be certain purveyors of products who will have bad things to say about ASTM if the subject comes up; most likely these will be people who have products to sell that do not meet the standards. A grain of salt is advisable in such instances.

By the way, one of the issues currently being looked into by members of the Subcommittee is the possibility of a standard for painting grounds, aka primers.

Virgil Elliott