Moria (Girl with a crystal earring)

[Holly Snyder]

When every digital image file is viewed, there's a color space that your software package (Photoshop, PaintShop Pro, etc.) uses to display the information in a file as colors. There's a second color space that defines how the information in the digital file will be translated to any particular ink/paper combination for printing. So how an image is displayed in software is not how it will print.

How your image is displayed will depend on what you have your color space set to in your Nikon (some other digital cameras have color space settings also). The RGB color space setting attaches a color space profile (.icc file) to the digital image file, which will be read and applied in Photoshop and Nikon Capture, but very possibly not Nikon View. I haven't tried either of the Nikon software packages, but Nikon View may just be a simple application, and not set up for dealing with the complexity of color spaces. Or, if you're using a different color space setting on the camera, which doesn't attach a profile, try changing the default working space in Photoshop. I don't have the full Photoshop, only Elements, which only has three choices for color space in the Edit menu under Color Settings. I'm sure there's a similar setting in Nikon Capture.

For printing, either you can use the settings in your print driver, i.e. choosing the type of paper, etc. This will use the color space defined by the manufacturer for your particular printer/ink/paper, and is how the majority of people print, as it usually produces adequate results. Or, if you have had your printer/paper combination calibrated with a hardware/software package, in Photoshop Elements you can use color management in the Print Preview dialogue and attach the color space (.icc file) that the calibration produced. I'm sure it's similar for the full version of Photoshop. If you're getting excellent printed results, I would guess that you're using a specific calibrated icc profile for your printer/paper, unless perhaps you're lucky enough that the default color space defined by the manufacturer for your printer driver is excellent. A side note: if you're attaching a color space profile for printing in Photoshop, you have to turn off the color adjustment settings in your printer driver (exactly how depends on the driver) so that you're not double-profiling. Double-profiling, essentially telling the printer to use two different color spaces, can produce pretty funky results!

Anyway, that may be more than you wanted to know, and maybe this isn't appropriate to post this in your thread, but I hope it's helpful.

Holly

[Joan Breckwoldt]

Originally Posted by Marvin Mattelson

Joan, the values in her face range from almost white (value 9 3/4) down to almost black (value 1 in her nostril) and black (value zero) in her pupils. I'd say that's a pretty good range. The cheek value averages about 3 1/2. Her right cheek and forehead average around 8, not counting the highlights.

Thank you Marvin, this is exactly what I was curious about. I should have clarified, when I said "Somehow you have made her seem so lifelike and 3 dimensional, but the value range within her face doesn't seem so large . . . at least not when compared to the dark value of her hair.", I was referring specifically to the skin tones, and not the nostrils or pupils.

Her cheek didn't look so dark to me (3 1/2), that's why I was asking. So I think you have proved to me that that wide range of values in skin tones is necessary to successfully show form.

thanks again,

Joan

[Marvin Mattelson]

Holly, thanks for taking the time to type out all this info.I started the thread so you have my permission to respond in any way you like. (Not that what I say counts for much!) I am aware of all the above info you posted. I've been into color management for years and yes I'm using icc profiles in my printer. The yellow problem in Photoshop started when I installed Photoshop CS and switched to Mac OS X. I actually called Nikon asking them what the problem was. They said that both Nikon software programs should look the same.Maybe I'll call back when I get a chance. I've checked all my color management settings In Nikon and Photoshop applications but alas, YELLOW!!!!!

Joan, it's not the range of values in any one area but the painting's overall arrangement that creates the illusion of form.

[Joan Breckwoldt]

Originally Posted by Marvin Mattelson

painting's overall arrangement

Marvin,

I'm sorry but I don't understand what you mean Do you mean it's the overall range of values in the entire painting that's important?

But . . . . to make a circle look like a ball, isn't it the range of values that makes it look like a ball? Even if it's a small range, that range is necessary, right? Or is that what you're saying, only a small range is necessary and I shouldn't get hung up on a large range of values?

Sorry to be harping on this value thing, but I'm feeling dense right now since I thought I understood what made a form 3d.

Joan

[Marvin Mattelson]

If you gave everything the fullest range of values possible you would create visual confusion. This is called over-modeling. If you over-model each area you lose the big relationships. The proper relationship between light and shadow areas would be destroyed if you expanded the value range of each. They would overlap value-wise and lose their separation and actually flatten out. The relationship between light and shadow is what creates form. The modeling enhances this effect but is at best secondary. Throw a thin halftone transition between the two main values, add a highlight, reflected light, accents and voila! Form!

[Joan Breckwoldt]

Marvin,

I do understand that much. I guess I thought there was something different you were talking about and I didn't know what that was. Sorry to have to ask you to explain all that when I did understand that, I guess somehow I just got confused with wording somewhere.

thanks,

Joan

[Holly Snyder]

I am aware of all the above info you posted.

Ok. It's too bad there's not an easy way of comparing the same images from our cameras side-by-side, as Garth mentioned in the Got the Blues thread.

Holly

[Chris Saper]

I have copied Holly's post on Color Space here: http://forum.portraitartist.com/show...8781#post38781 so that the topic can be more easily located for those who are interested in color profiles.

Please go to the new thread to adress color space topics. Thanks.

[Linda Brandon]

Hi Marvin,

I just spotted this thread and your painting is Marvelous. Congratulations! I'm going to go back and take another long look at it.