Palette drying too fast

[Joan Breckwoldt]

From the thread that Chuck found I have learned about tubing my own paints. You people are brilliant! I always thought I needed to mix up fresh paint each time and maybe I do, but, the possibility of having the same basic flesh colors for the life of the painting would be a nice 'security blanket' for me. Though, after lots of thought and reading the new posts above, there is something to layering with newly mixed colors.

Chris,

Thank you for all the valuable information.

Originally Posted by Chris Saper

I actually use paints and mediums that dry so quickly I routinely scrape off my palette and put out fresh colors by noon each day. If there is a dry passage on my painting, I 'wet' it with some medium or light retouch varnish; then it is not so difficult to paint into a previously painted surface, nor to match the colors well. I think Peggy B uses Poppyseed oil to 'wet" a dry surface. The only time I really re-paint areas (other than to fix mistakes!) is where I need to manage edge transitions.
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This is interesting. I can not imagine scarping off my palette every day. Then you remix the colors the next day? Could I use Liquin as my medium if I needed to wet an area?

I just painted a little girl and after working for 3 or 4 days, I scraped off everything. Her face wasn't right yet, my paint on the canvas was getting sticky and I couldn't move it around. Recently I had seen some JSS's at the Met and Boston MFA and I love the way those paintings are so rich with paint. When I paint, the paint sort of 'sinks' into the canvas. Blah. So, I thought to get the rich luxurious look, I would use lots of paint. I got carried away. My paint was way too thick, it was probably 1/8" thick and I couldn't get it to be smooth on her face, which I wanted. To compound the problem I've scaped off paint more than once and I even sanded old paint off the face once so I have a surface as smooth as glass now. I started with linen canvas and 2 coats of primer.

So, this brings me to painting thin layers and letting them dry inbetween. Hmm. I have always tried to work wet into wet and I just keep working at it until, viola!, I'm happy with it and then I step away and don't touch it again.

Marvin,

Thank you for your post. As usual, I think there is a wealth of information in your post but I'm just not able to grasp all of it. I'm trying though, I've reread your post half a dozen times and I'm trying to formulate my questions so I have a better response than "Huh?".

See, I thought it would be heaven if the palette AND canvas would just stay wet for about a month, or at least 2-3 weeks. Then I could keep working at the painting and adjusting this or that value and color, and then finally work out the details. Then I would be done and I would wave my magic wand and it would dry. But, from reading your post and thinking about it, and studying your website and the demo there, I think this is not the best way to approach a portrait. It must not be because it's not working for me!

Therefore the answer must be to paint the face the best I can, then leave it alone for it to dry. Then come back and make further adjustments with another layer. Would you say this next layer is actually a scumble? I think you would use zinc white because it's more transparent (?). But without a medium to thin down the paint, isn't this the same as just repainting the face?

I think I'm almost there with understanding this so please bare(sp?) with me. It's interesting how this process is coming about through trial and error for me. I would be lost without all the help I get on this forum.

Thank you again Chris and Marvin,

Joan

[Marvin Mattelson]

I think there is a wealth of information in your post but I'm just not able to grasp all of it.

I assume this is a compliment? If so, thanks!

Extra! Extra! Read all about it: Sargent worked in layers! His portrait of the deceased son (can't remember his name) of Asher Wertheimer is unmitigated proof of this. It's been documented that he scraped off heads as much as fifty times. Just because something looks spontaneous doesn't mean it is. JC Leyendecker< arguably the greatest American Illustrator did a practice painting where he worked out literally every brush stroke prior to commencing on his finished painting.

What's my point? Things are not always what they appear! Preconceived notions only serve to limit your possibilities. The fact that poppy oil creates a weaker paint film didn't stop Philip de Laszlo from using it. If only we could all paint that well. The main thing is to find what works for you and develop your own style. If painting into wet soup doesn't suit you try layers.

The thing to keep in mind that one can paint in layers and each layer can be painted wet into wet. I start each new layer with scumbling and paint into the scumble with wet paint. I am repainting the head but I allow what's under to come through and then I refine it, in much the same way a sculptor keeps refining smoothness with finer cuts.

If I want thinner paint I'll add some linseed oil or a mixture of 40% cold pressed linseed, 40% Gamsol and 20% stand oil.

[Joan Breckwoldt]

Originally Posted by Marvin Mattelson

I assume this is a compliment? If so, thanks!

If painting into wet soup doesn't suit you try layers.

The thing to keep in mind that one can paint in layers and each layer can be painted wet into wet. I start each new layer with scumbling and paint into the scumble with wet paint. I am repainting the head but I allow what's under to come through and then I refine it, in much the same way a sculptor keeps refining smoothness with finer cuts.

Thank you Marvin for replying. Yes, that was meant to be a compliment. You think art on a higher plane so I need to read your words very carefully to grasp the full meaning.

I tried layers but I tried it in the manner of underpainting. I thought there were two ways to paint, underpainting or alla prima. Underpainting didn't seem spontaneous enough for me at the time and the looseness of alla prima appealed to me. So, I tried wet into wet. Now I'm learning there seems to be a combination of the two!

When you say you paint into the scumble with wet paint, I'm assuming the scumble is over paint that has dried. In essence, you are creating a wet environment by putting on the scumble first? I think I get it.

I guess painting with 'layers' is different from the underpainting method because with underpainting the original underpainting done in raw umber and white (or whatever combination people use) shows through the glazes. But, with 'layers', the original painting, or first layer is completely obscured by additional layers? Have I got this right?

Thanks again, I would be learning portrait painting in a vacuum without the generous posts on this forum!

Joan

[Marvin Mattelson]

Linda, you're too kind, but flattery will get you anywhere.

Joan, You're getting a better idea but I think you're still stuck trying to differentiate between two seemingly opposite approaches.

I do put a scumble down as a base to paint wet into, but not all the time. Sometimes I paint over dry and sometimes over an oiled out section. Sometimes I let my underpainting show through. Sometimes intermediate layers show. Although my approach may be mistakenly viewed by many as being too methodical. In truth, it really allows me to be quite spontaneous. I do what works and at times I discover new techniques after my brush a has shown me the way. I discover new things about painting all the time. Ultimately discipline provides the greatest freedom.

[Joan Breckwoldt]

Originally Posted by Marvin Mattelson

Joan, You're getting a better idea but I think you're still stuck trying to differentiate between two seemingly opposite approaches.

Thank you for your post Marvin. Are you saying they're not opposite approaches? Should I forget about trying to make them different and just meet in the middle, which seems to be where this is leading?

Originally Posted by Marvin Mattelson

Although my approach may be mistakenly viewed by many as being too methodical. . . . . Ultimately discipline provides the greatest freedom.

Methodical is good. I have an engineering degree and the main reason I got into engineering was because it was methodical. Methodical works for me. Perhaps that is why I'm trying so hard to name everything and find a place in my process for everything.

I think the best thing for me to do now is to just do it. I need to paint a portrait and use the 'layering' technique.

But, am I not back to the 'underpainting' method? I am comfortable painting a monochromatic portrait. With this step I can get my values correct. If the world were in black and white I'd be great. Too bad I can't be done with that first step! Then the next step is adjusting color. I realize most artists combine these two steps but I'm not proficient enough to place down value and color correctly at the same time. After my layer of color I can proceed to adjust the color with layers of scumbling. (Maybe glazing, whatever is necessary.) I feel comfortable I could do this. But, isn't this the 'underpainting' method?

I suppose it doesn't matter what the method is called, as long as it works.

Thank you everyone for sharing your wisdom on this subject!

Joan

[Joan Breckwoldt]

One more thought. I guess I understood that with the underpainting method one paints the underpainting and then adds glazes. No scumbles, just glazes. The glazes made the painting darker. So that means the final painting would never be lighter anywhere than the original underpainting. The underpainting had to be lighter everywhere than the final painting would end up being.

That's probably not right though, is it? Why have a technique that is so limiting. No wonder that method didn't work for me when I tried it.

Hmmph.

Joan

[Marvin Mattelson]

There are many types of under-painting. I have a demo on my site from a workshop in Atlanta last year at http://www.fineartportrait.com/workshop_demo.html Maybe this will strike a chord?

I assume you went to school for a number of years to become an engineer. Is art any less legitimate than engineering? I would suggest you consider taking a workshop that would clarify a sound working procedure. I could probably recommend someone if you're interested ;-)