Membership fees for Forum access

[Cynthia Daniel]

Lisa,

Instead of paying for whole access, you might consider creating a 2-tier model. Part would be free, and value-added services would be for pay. You could probably get a lot more than $30/year for some of the best parts of this site, and you would have a larger stream of people interested because they weren't turned away at the front door.

The only ones turned away at the front door are artists whose drawing skills are below a certain level or whose style is very inconsistent with our focus. I think the membership software supports access to certain areas. I would have to check whether it's an automatic thing. But, it would be easier to have an annual fee that covered critiques over charging for them one at a time.

Critiques I think are incredibly valuable. Steven does them for free, I'm guessing (bless his heart), but a $40 fee for a critique by a panel of "experts" sounds fair to me. Of course, you'd have to pay the experts too.

The tracking of all that could end up being a lot of work and I'm trying to decrease the amount of work. Better would simply be an annual bonus for moderators or something along those lines.

Online, there aren't nearly as many demos as I wish there were. I think lots of us wish there were more demos. A live demo or workshop would be a for-fee event that could either be in a forum topic, or in a live webcast. A topic of ample, well-done demos is something I would be happy to pay for as subscription.

Webcast is not something I want to get into. We have had a section pending for a portrait demo start to finish, which would be steps shown in posts in a thread. The first was to be Allan Banks and Peggy is in charge of that. It's been a long time coming, because both Allan and Peggy are very busy. But, I just happened to speak with Allan yesterday and he said he had now completed a couple of portraits where he had taken photos at the appropriate stages.

There are some things I can never seem to get my hands on - Richard Schmid's book, Daniel Greene's videos, Peggy's videos. A kind of lending library would be something I would pay for.

Again, there's the time issue - running a lending library would increase workload. Do you mean used or new? Peggy sells her videos right from her site and they are advertised on the left side on every page of this forum. Dan's videos can be purchased through him and I think there are a few online places.

You could add more portal-type services, links to more books, supplies, etc. Try CommissionJunction.com. You'll get commissions on those sales.

More books? Have you ever visited by bookstore? There's over 400 books there. I put the Dick Blick link at the top of all pages of the Forum thinking I'd start getting a lot of sales from that, but it's been barely a trickle. A lot of the art supply places do not have affiliate programs. There's actually a lot of portal type links over in my Resouce & Biz section of my main site. There's really not a lot of space on the Forum to put a ton of links unless I started a thread just for that, but would anyone really read it and click - and then bother to come back the next time they ordered?

Also, I think you might just ask for contributions. It seems like lots of people would be inclined to give it to you.

Well, of the two that said they'd be willing to pay in this thread, they are my moderators, so they get free membership anyway.

I'm not sure what part of your business model this Forum would be... I can see it as a marketing expense, and then you'd have to assess its effectiveness for you.

I've gotten only a few new clients from the Forum. I see that as a bonus, since I didn't start the Forum to get new clients. However, the time spent in other ways would have been more financialy productive for me.

But as a private paid-for service, I don't think it would add anything to your brand identity, and would continue to be expensive and time-consuming to run.

I feel it would be less time-consuming because only those who are truly interested in being involved would bother to pay the fee. This would decrease the number of new applicants. The membership software does automatic emails for membership expirations and it interfaces with PayPal for payments.

It might make sense to sell it off to someone and have them host and manage it with a revenue strategy. Or it might (heavens no) make sense to shut it down, and have a group of artists restart one as a co-op.

I can't see that the Forum by itself has any saleability.If it were to close down, why start a new one - why not just go over to WetCanvas?

It's interesting that this thread has had 171 views as of this writing, but only 5 people have responded. That's because most of the people viewing are not registered members.

[Mike McCarty]

Prospective new members would be given a free trial period.

I think this would be essential if you go that way.

I can't see that the Forum by itself has any saleability.If it were to close down, why start a new one - why not just go over to WetCanvas?

I don't know much about WetCanvas, how do they make ends meet?

Additionally, the level of accomplishment of new applicants is all over the place, often the artist needing simple basics, which is beyond the scope of this Forum. It was just becoming too much to handle to let everyone join who wanted to, so the Board decided to require approval for new members.

I have always thought that a good bit of the critique should be canned. For the beginners who post beginners work, they should be directed to a canned response section ie: edges, composition, poor photo reference. The onus should be on them to bring their work to a point which deserves a critique.

About the question of maintenance, file storage, hard dollar expenses, these are tough business decisions for you. I don't think anyone here feels a sense of entitlement. I don't want to speak for the other moderators, but, I think there is a certain sense of wanting to give back and pass on what we know. There is a distinction however, we spend no hard dollars to do this, only time.

As for me, I hope some equitable solution can be reached, I would not like to see the forum disappear.

[Cynthia Daniel]

I have always thought that a good bit of the critique should be canned. For the beginners who post beginners work, they should be directed to a canned response section ie: edges, composition, poor photo reference. The onus should be on them to bring their work to a point which deserves a critique.

All new members receive an email when their membership is approved asking them to do some thorough reading on the Forum before they ask for critique.

Michele has previously suggest a place to refer others on basics. I think it's a good idea. I could call the section "The Basics?" Then correct information would need to be posted there.

When I moved FreeDrive.com from free to fee, the reasons were similar. It was expensive, it was time consuming, and the software was becoming unwieldy due to its size. We had 15 or 17 million members, I can't remember. We ended up with something like a 4% conversion of the active members (something quite lower than 15 million). Most of the savings were derived not from eliminating usage, but from eliminating storage - which for you would mean archiving most of the information that's already here.

Additional costs crept in, like the need to advertise the service. Also, we had seriously undermined the trust relationship we had with our customers, and over time, though usage was initially high, a large percentage of them did eventually drop off.

Overall, it was a good thing for Freedrive, despite the trauma, which was significant. It extended the life of the company by about 8 months or so, and the company did not fail because of the fee structure. Eventually I think the usage would have crept back up, but in all probably we would have sought an outside partnership anyway and tried to integrate the service with similar businesses.

I consulted for 2 other businesses who wanted to take their memberships to fee-based. Part of the analysis and research included indentifying all the assets of having the free structure, and what the probable outcome would be if the structure would change. It doesn't sound as though you feel this Forum is actually netting you a benefit, and that's an important thing to consider.

Prospective members expect an exchange-for-value. In other words, the Forum would have to get better in some way - more services, deeper conversations, artistic promotion, something - and that would involve more work. Your storage bill would not change - if you archived all the messages why would people stay? Your ad budget would increase - if you wanted to sustain membership you'll have to have new people. Free access for moderators is not much of a draw to get people to work for you. The 30 day trial will bring in about 70% of people who never return, diluting the conversation and value further. Of the 50-75 members (less? more?) who have posted in the last 30 days, only maybe 25% can be optimistically expected to sign up based on this survey - is 15 people enough to sustain a lively forum?

So what I'm suggesting is that there may be other ways to increase revenues, and decrease costs and time spent. While this road might turn out to be the best for you, it might not be, too.

[Jean Kelly]

Hi,

As a member and non-moderator, I would be willing to pay a yearly fee for membership. This forum has been my lifeline back to art. I don't feel qualified to give critques yet and do feel I "owe" for all the informaton I receive here.

How much is it worth to me? I'm still thinking on it. I certainly have learned more here than in my "Artist" magazine. I would pay more than that yearly subcription.

Many points have been brought up so far that I want to address. First, I am not computer literate, but my son is. As far as I'm concerned anything on the internet (like a forum) magically runs itself. My son has taught me the reality of forum maintenance through his own work. I can confirm that operating even small forums is time consuming, feeding an ever hungry monster.

As for just closing it down and moving on to "Wet Canvas", absolutley not! Each forum has it's own persona, this forum is directed at representational art, pinpointing "fine art" and technique. I post at "Wet Canvas" for fun and conversation. I post and read here to learn.

Also (just for your info Cynthia), I visit this site many times daily without logging in. So take at least 5 views a day by a non-member and mulitiply it by how manys days I've been a member and subtract that from your total views for a more accurate picture of total views. My way of being invisible!

I've determined that I can't take workshops due to my health issues. This is my school, if I need to pay I will gratefully. Oh, and the internet was developed for the government, not for our (the public) entertainment. It is an incredible opportunity and resource for learning. Since becoming internet savvy, I've turned into an information hound, it only costs me a computer, all the add on stuff, a cable connection, maintenance, time, etc. etc. etc.

One more thing, if I pay can I post my animals????

Jean

[Leslie Ficcaglia]

All the considerations of marketing, audience, and overall impact on the forum of such a step aside, I'd be willing to pay what I spend on an art magazine subscription yearly to be able to continue to access SOG's portrait forum. It's a valuable resource for me and I enjoy reading critiques and discussions even when I don't participate actively. The degree of expertise and professionalism here is unique. I posted on WetCanvas for a long time and was invited to become a moderator, but eventually felt that the level of ability was too variable and that for every artist with skill or promise, ten others seemed to have very little awareness of their own shortcomings and not much insight into how they might improve.

In terms of their business practices, I also have the impression that WetCanvas actively solicits contributions, although they're not required for posting privileges.

Only you can know how much time and energy maintaining this forum requires, and whether it's worth it to you. As well, only you know what level of reimbursement would tip the balance so that your ends were furthered and your efforts compensated for. I shall watch this thread with interest. Best of luck, whatever you decide!

[Elizabeth Schott]

The Internet was intended as a free space, and even after rampant commercialization, most education and edifying spaces are still free.

I think this is a basic misconception and Al Gore totally forgot to think this thru when he developed this great resource.

There are a few things people (web surfers) do not think about, and really wouldn

[Cynthia Daniel]

Mike,

I don't know how WetCanvas covers their costs.


Beth,

All good and true information. Thank you. However, I think Lisa meant the Internet information was free to the consumer and you're talking about costs to the provider of the site.


Everyone,

Several people have suggested that I take on advertising to cover costs.

1. A lot of what appears to be advertising on sites is either:

• link exchanges
• affilate programs where a percentage of sales is paid

2. A few months ago, I put up the Dick Blick banner on the Forum pages. I thought the Forum would be a perfect place since so many artists visit here. I've gotten very little from it. No advertiser would be willing to continue to pay for the little bit that banner has generated.

3. Marketing to advertisers is a whole project in itself. There's figuring out what it's worth and that's based on statistics and from what I've read, some of them I don't have access to. Then there's all the communication to potential advertisers, followup calls - it's a huge project in itself.

4. Part of the reason to charge a fee is to discourage:

• people who apply, are approved and never participate
• people whose work doesn't fall within our focus

[Cynthia Daniel]

Most of the savings were derived not from eliminating usage, but from eliminating storage - which for you would mean archiving most of the information that's already here.

I pay for bandwidth, not storage. However, if it became large enough the isp would ask me to buy my own hard drive.

Additional costs crept in, like the need to advertise the service. Also, we had seriously undermined the trust relationship we had with our customers, and over time, though usage was initially high, a large percentage of them did eventually drop off.

Overall, it was a good thing for Freedrive, despite the trauma, which was significant. It extended the life of the company by about 8 months or so, and the company did not fail because of the fee structure. Eventually I think the usage would have crept back up, but in all probably we would have sought an outside partnership anyway and tried to integrate the service with similar businesses.

I consulted for 2 other businesses who wanted to take their memberships to fee-based. Part of the analysis and research included indentifying all the assets of having the free structure, and what the probable outcome would be if the structure would change. It doesn't sound as though you feel this Forum is actually netting you a benefit, and that's an important thing to consider.

Prospective members expect an exchange-for-value. In other words, the Forum would have to get better in some way - more services, deeper conversations, artistic promotion, something - and that would involve more work.

So, you're saying that as it is, that it has no value?

Your storage bill would not change - if you archived all the messages why would people stay?

I wouldn't archive the messages.

Your ad budget would increase - if you wanted to sustain membership you'll have to have new people.

All of the current members have come from the visibility of my main site, some promotion by supporters like Karin Wells and Chris Saper. I don't do any advertising, nor would I. The Forum is only a part of the main Stroke of Genius site and not my main business.

Free access for moderators is not much of a draw to get people to work for you.

Most people who become moderators do so because they have teacher inclinations or have derived a lot from the Forum and want to contribute back.

The 30 day trial will bring in about 70% of people who never return, diluting the conversation and value further.

The 30 day trial would only be for viewing and would take no interaction on my part.

Of the 50-75 members (less? more?) who have posted in the last 30 days,

I don't know. Looking at what statistics there are, there are something like 1400 unique visitors a month and anywhere from 20-150 posts a day.

I also believe that people often tend to not appreciate or take for granted that which is free.

[Elizabeth Schott]

I think Lisa meant the Internet information was free to the consumer and you're talking about costs to the provider of the site.

...thus, the cost to the user.

Several people have suggested that I take on advertising to cover costs.

Yuck! I think it junks up a site and takes away from the professional look.