Painting horses and people

[Melinda Roeleveld]

I have been commissioned to paint a painting of a mother and daughter with their horses (not riding). It will be less about the individual's face and more about their relationship with the horse. I have several problems with this commission. Taking the reference photos was not easy, and I have no idea how to figure out the pricing. I plan to paint more of a landscape, blending the horses and figures into it in a natural setting (not posed). I don't want the figures to stand out, but harmonize with the beautiful fall background in a very plein air/painterly manner (in fact I plan on painting much of the background on location).

Has anyone had any experience with this type of painting, any tips, suggestions, and pricing ideas? I feel that I should not charge the same amount as a portrait since the face of the individual will only measure a few inches (the total size of the painting will be about 24" x 30"), but it is not an easy commission!

Thanks for any ideas from experienced painters!

[Steven Sweeney]

Melinda,

I can't speak to the pricing query you posed, but I do want to make sure you've seen Chris Saper's prize-winning Kristina and Pongo. My gut reaction is that you should not only not charge less for the "lesser" presence of the human figure, but perhaps more for the addition of the animal.

Chris will perhaps have some insights and advices on that.

[Chris Saper]

Hi Melinda,

Quite a number of thoughts come to mind, because I think people and horses are always problematic compositions.

First I think you need to decide in your own mind whether this is a figurative scene including people and horses, or a portrait. If it's to be a figurative scene, I can't help you very much (OK, well, not at all) with pricing. If it is to be a double portrait, you should charge according to what your published portraiture price states.

Horses are, as you know, extremely difficult to photograph. You will always need to be on a stepstool, or some type of elevated platform to deal with the horse, and the complexity is compounded because the size of an average adult is generally much smaller. Just the head of the horse is so enormous that it is hard to derive a composition containing both horse and human where the human is not overwhelmed.

It is also my experience that serious riders/ competitors are extrememly particular about the photo showing the horse at its best - which means the ears need to look a certain way, the legs at trot or canter cannot be at an awkward angle - they're used to seeing horses in the stretch or confirmation that horse show photographers provide. Perhaps your clients think of their horses as pets, but likely not.

In Kristina and Pongo, I had several things working in my favor:

First, Pongo is actually a pony and is relatively short. He is also Kristina's pet.

Second, I had an excellent relationship with the parents (they already had another portrait from me), so that they trusted me to tell them what would work.

Linda Brandon loaned me her book, "Atlas of Animal Anatomy" without which I would have had dreadful difficulty painting Pongo since I really needed to know the bone structure and underlying musculature of the horse's face.


I worked out very carefully three-value massing before starting the painting so I could keep the white Pongo from competing with Kristina.

I didn't charge extra for the horse. I don't charge extra for pets, as I guess I sort of think of them as props, and find them to take no more time than a background in filling square inches. I should probably rethink the pet-charge issue, though.

I have done a number of other equestrian paintings as well, simple portraits with riding habits, casual jeans holding a bridle, a child sitting on the paddock fence petting the horse (I was on a ladder for that one).

Small dogs and kittens are a lot more manageable. I suppose my advice is to really nail down with you want to do, and make sure you have a meeting of the minds with your client. Once you decide, you might like to post some reference photos for critique or composition. (I am on the run but will move this thread to conceptualizing the painting - composition when I return.)

Good luck, Melinda!

[Melinda Roeleveld]

Thanks Steve and Chris for your quick replies.

This will be more of a landscape with the horses set into it. It started out where the client wanted her horse painted. She got him to "pose" in his show stand, etc., but then asked if she could be in the painting as well. Hmmmm. Then she asked if her daughter could be in the background with her horse! That's when we decided together that she had to decide between portraits or a figurative scene (with as much acuracy possible of the likenesses of every figure in the painting). Yes, it was difficult, and I will have to do a second photo shoot. They did not wear the appropriate clothing and were more concerned that the horses were all spruced up than themselves (little do they know, I don't have to paint the dirt on the horse's back). But I think we now know what we want and I look forward to doing this job. At another time I may do the daughter's portrait with only the head of her horse, similar to what you did, Chris. For now, I will work on several compositions (the mother and her horse in the forground and her daughter leading her horse across the field in the middle ground, the pasture and hill way in the background).

Thanks for the tip about anatomy of horses (although that's all I used to draw as a child, so feel pretty familiar with the horse), and as far as pricing goes, I still don't feel I can charge portrait prices. My problem is, I have never really attempted to sell a landscape (but I do love painting them). This may open up new doors!

[Richard Budig]

They say you can say anything if you say it right.

I handle the problem of the growing number of people and things in a portrait in my beginning talks with the client. I have lighthearted little list of things I cover when we first start talking about price.

Price usually comes up early on, which gives me the opportunity to say, in a reasonably lighthearted way, that, of course, it depends on all the little things, like is your pet or mother-in-law going to be in there somewhere -- is grampy's barn or your favorite lizard going to be in there somewhere. I go to say that all these things can change the price. And, I add, that price will change with the amount of "you" we show -- from head and shoulders up to full length.

Even with "friends," who, in my experience, seem more likely to "lean" on you, I get into this aspect fairly early on.

[Linda Brandon]

Hi Melinda,

This sounds like it will be a fun commission, congratulations!

If this were my commission I'd start with taking a good look at Western paintings containing horses that I admire for their composition. You're right: you are going to have to tackle landscape painting, perspective and composition as well as horse anatomy problems. You are probably also aware that horse owners are very picky about horse anatomy, especially leg structure, so tred carefully there.

I paint lots of animals and I don't hesitate to charge for them, though I charge less than I do for humans. If they are background props I might rethink this attitude - but I would still be really careful about anatomy. Your familiarity with horses will help you out here.

One of my favorite paintings with a horse, by the way, is Caravaggio's "The Conversion of St. Paul" but I doubt that it's what you had in mind for this commission.

Keep us posted as to how this goes.

[Jeanine Jackson]

It sounds like you have a landscape commission with figures. I have found it helpful in such instances to use my landscape pricing with a fixed additional amount for each figure (including horses). The total still works out to be less than a portrait of similar size.

The images below show a case in point. The client liked the bottom image which I had sold as an equestrian landscape. She asked me to customize the scene to include the paint pony and team colors of the recipient from her excellent photo references. Pricing was pretty simple as I kept it close to the first with a small additional charge to work in her preferences.

The happy ending included a subsequent portrait commission!