Of donkeys and lost boys
 

[I]I must apologize. This got really long, but my thoughts just kept going, and since it is the new year, I don

It's a double edged sword, Elizabeth. I've never posted on wetcanvas.com because it seems that every post gets a flood of compliments and those animated applauding smileys. I've always recoiled at insincere compliments, and appreciate an authoritative critique (with a pat on the back when I've earned it ;) ).

So I searched the net for a serious discussion group, and I think I've found the best there is. While your comments about this group might seem a bit gushing to some, I feel exactly the same way.

There's a price that comes with running with the big dogs, and I learned that quickly, when two of my first three drawings got no critques. The one that got comments, however, gave me information that seemed to apply to my work in general, so I guess it evens out. I quickly stopped posting anything drawn from life, though, since those apparently aren't up to speed, and now post drawings done from photos. My work from photos is better because the model sits still for as long as I need, and is already two dimensional. These posts have gotten me some good feedback that I am applying to all my work, including the life work (which I'll keep to myself until it improves).

I think that new members here have to prove two things: First, we have to show that we're capable of professional work. Second, if our work isn't up to professional standards (like mine), we have to show that we're working hard to improve. There are always new members who post a few times and never return. The regulars may feel that their time is wasted on the new guys who aren't going to follow through. So in a few months or a year, when I'm still here, and my work is better, I can expect regular input.

But I stand by what I said in the other thread. When a new member (or anyone) asks for a critique, then reacts negatively after getting it, people become less likely to post critiques for people they don't know, and the group circles the wagons against new members. I'm now refraining from posting new drawings unless they're serious attempts. I posted one yesterday that is a commission (pro bono ;C ), so I want it to be right. Otherwise, I keep my day-to-day drawings to myself. I have re-read Cynthia's posting guidelines, and I'm trying to follow them.

I had an art professor WAY back that gave me the greatest gift anyone could have--objectivity about my work. He was known for excessively rough critiques, and the students either loved him or hated him; a few individuals left the program after suffering particulary withering criticism. But if you toughed it out, you realized that it was always about the work and not personal, and that he was generous, accessible and very supportive of us as students and fellow humans.

It's a slippery stance to cultivate within oneself, the position of being self-confident and self-affirming and yet relentlessly objective and always somewhat dissatisfied with one's work. But I believe that growth as an artist resides there. It never gets easier, you always find that upon reaching a horizon, the next view is merely that of another distant horizon. But really, if it were easy, there'd be no museums, and no reason to strive.

"Nothing is more apt to deceive us more readily than our own judgment of our work. We derive more benefit from having our faults pointed out by our enemies than from hearing the opinions of friends." --Leonardo Da Vinci

Somebody remind me of this the next time I'm moping about tepid reception to a mediocre work of mine.

Also thanks, Beth, for your generous affirmation.

Love to all.

The last couple of times I posted works to be critiqued on this site, several people said they should have been posted in the "unveilings" section instead of the "critique" section. I knew that was not true. I believe we all need critiques. It would seem strange to me to show a painting and tell viewers beforehand that I was only interested in praise!

I hope I always feel that I have a lot of growing to do, and I will never stop striving to be better.

It's sometimes up to us to consider the source of the critiques we receive and whether or not to implement the suggestions. However, I've also found that those who may not be able to paint very well often have the most insightful things to say about my work. My seven and eight year old daughters will be the first ones to say something like, "His nose is too big!" and they'll be right.

The people who have done me the greatest disservice in the past have been professionals, friends and family who have praised work that I know now to have been positively awful!

During the second workshop I ever took with Harley Brown, he walked up behind me, took his cane and SMACKED my easel. "WRONG! WRONG! WRONG!" The cane was loud, the voice was louder.

I said, "What?" And he pointed to the shape of the cast shadow I had placed on the philtrum under my subject's nose. I was SO excited! I knew if he was fussing about the little shapes, that my big shapes were right. Several other students were completely horrified. But I grinned until my face hurt.

Thank heavens there is so much to learn in this work. I would be downright depressed if I believed this was the best I would ever be able to do.

Although this wonderful quote was directed toward musicians, it applies to us all, and to Jeff's and Tom's points in particular: Thank you Beth, and to all.

One of my final projects one year was a still-life with which I was quite pleased and about ready to sign and take off the easel, when my instructor came by for a final look. His entire critique consisted of:

Before I began to frequent the SOG forum I spent a lot of time on WetCanvas' portraiture board. I really enjoyed offering critiques, where requested, to people who seemed to be at a level where they could benefit from suggestions and implement them. Sometimes it seemed as if the right hints could have the potential of helping a person rise to the next stage of proficiency and that was very satisfying.

When I was wrestling with a problem I also tried to take advantage of others' expertise and sometimes got great advice; at other times what was offered didn't seem germane or particularly helpful.

Knowing what kinds of input inspire me, I try to tailor my own suggestions accordingly. I don't respond unless I can be constructive and I try to keep in mind the first tenet of medicine: Primo non nocere - First of all, do no harm.

I'm always amazed at the patience and kindness displayed by people like Karin Wells, Chris Saper, Steven Sweeney, William Whitaker and Marvin Mattelson. They are true saints in their wilingness to offer encouragement and a hand up to an aspiring fellow artist. May their brushes long be limber and may the gods smile upon them!

Lost chances
 

Way back when I was in art school, (before God) my art professor took me aside after my first studio class. He told me that he wasn't going to be able to teach me how to draw, I already knew how. He said that my criteria would be different than others in the class. I would only get the A that had always come so easily if he could "feel" what I created.

He scared me half to death because I didn't have a clue as to what he was talking about. His critiques were scathing at times, and on many occasions I was devastated. But I learned something more valuable than just art from him. He became a good friend and father figure when I needed it most. When I had to leave school I gave him my best work, a portrait of him.

An informed critique is one of the best teaching tools in art training. And an informed critique from an accomplished artist is a precious gift. I say keep your mouth shut, listen, and do the work!

Goals, results and criticism
 

I have a meeting to attend this morning so I will be brief.

I read this thread (well, most of it) and scanned through the previous thread that motivated it. And my thoughts are that yes, this site does welcome comment and contribution from all levels of artists. But I think that Sharon and those professionals that others may feel are being harsh may actually be offering the best service to those truly contemplating art as a profession. (If you do not get feedback on a post be patient.)

If you intend to be a professional artist you'd better get over your aversion to strong opinions and criticism of your work. In response to a post in the previous thread (I can't remember who posted it at the moment) RESULTS are all that matters. We have all heard someone say things like, "My dad worked hard all his life and never had a thing to show for it." Or that he worked very hard but never seemed to get ahead. Yes, hard work is essential to success but it is not synonymous with success. Hard work that is unfocused or without preparation will be unproductive.

Many feel that success is a result of getting a break or opportunity. Sure, opportunities given or created are important if anyone is to see your work, but opportunity will only make the unprepared look foolish. You may have heard the old saying, "Work smarter, not harder", but if you are to succeed, it is not one or the other, but both smart and hard work that will lead to skill. Then when opportunity presents itself, you will shine instead of looking the fool.

I have a long way to go in my own goal of becoming the artist I strive to be (or the person I strive to be, for that matter). But my advice is to set real goals, and then be honest with yourself as to your effort and the level of achievement you have made towards those goals. You alone know when what you have created is what you intended. It may not be what someone else would have strived for, but you have reached your goal. Now set a new one and move on.

If you look among the artists of the SOG Hall of Fame, you will see very different styles, each beautifully executed. So accept the criticism of others with a smile, for it will always be there. No matter how good you get, your work will not please everyone. But also be honest with yourself, do not let your own defense mechanisms keep you from seeing where you need improvement. When you have attained a goal, set a new one right away, for the end of growth is the beginning of failure.

Well, I must really go now, but I hope I got out what I intended here and that others gain from the advice.

Michael,

You may have gotten the impression that I was complaining about my college instructor. Far from it. Go back and re-read my post. I absolutely agree that results are all that matter. When your work is hanging on a wall, it has to stand on its own. No one knows, or cares, how hard you worked. It's ALL about results.

This has become an awfully active thread, considering everyone seems to have the same opinion. We all agree on the value of a no-nonsense critique.

The "donkeys and lost boys" in question were not complaining about critiques, but expressing a desire for more tough love. I only regret that so much energy has gone into this thread, taking time away from critiques for those who could benefit from them.

Jeff, my response was to emphasize that different personalities can benefit from different types of critiques. I've heard many horror stories about people who left art early and didn't return until life and years had given them the confidence to try again - all because of someone who was a harsh critic and who made them believe that their work was no good. These were people who often became quite successful later on and who demonstrated a true mastery of art; what a shame that they were discouraged from practicing it for so long. Since we don't know each other's needs and personalities I always try to err on the side of kindness.

So no, I don't think we're all saying the same thing, and for what it's worth, I'm also still critiquing as well as commenting here. We all find the time to respond to what grabs us. Not to worry!

I think this thread is doing what I would hope it would do, but I think I should explain my analogy to "Donkey

I think we're all in agreement that honest critiques are essential, and when they are delivered with tact and thoughtfulness those critiques are more likely to be well received, too.

I think the objection some have expressed is not with the critiques themselves but with the harsh way in which they have sometimes been delivered by instructors in the past.

Ah yes, a lost girl, that's me happily in most parts of my life. But I can see where it can be a problem in the art world. I read here, just about every day and try to soak it all in. And my next post of work will not be done until I feel I have really executed everything I have learned through all the threads.

I'm sure it must be extremely frustrating for people who take their time to make thoughtful critiques, to see the advice not taken. But don't worry, there are a lot of us out here who are taking notes and applying them to our own work.

Steven,

I am curious about this, if you could elaborate that would be great.[QUOTE]And the

Just for clarification ...

I welcome critiques, and the more honest, the better. I will never, ever take offense at advice, no matter how harshly it may come across. I am here to learn and personally I can't learn from a pat on the head. I'm probably not normal, but it's just not in my nature to seek encouragement or kudos. I'd prefer that something I post is dissected and 'shredded'. That's just how I'm wired.

In November I was able to show my first two oil portraits (copies) to a local professional, who promptly told me "You're getting a handle on color but you have no concept of the underlying structure of the head. You need to learn how to draw." Rather than try to explain that I'd only been painting for three months or that I'd never had instruction, I bought a book on anatomy and found a professional illustrator who was willing to teach drawing long distance (a most gracious gentleman).

Further, as some here will attest, I will NEVER waste the learning opportunity given when you take the time to make a suggestion. Since I started drawing a year ago I have always endeavored to put suggestions into practice as soon as possible. If it means erasing graphite or scraping paint ... so be it. I'm here to learn portraiture.

I'm still waiting expectantly for a spot to open up with one of the finest portrait artists on the East Coast. Until then, the Internet is all I have and I use it to the fullest.

Minh "Teacherless" Thong

In order to resolve this issue, I'm offering to become Minh Thong's teacher. His plea for critiques, and the ever present "Still Teacherless" tag on his posts cannot go ignored forever.

No, I may not be the most qualified teacher, but I've compiled a top ten list of the reasons I should be Minh Thong's art teacher:

10. I work cheap

9. He won

I really do try not be a wise-acre here, unlike my often notorious silly self on other fora. But I just can't help it this time ...


10. Well, considering that I just took my third pay cut Friday at noon, and was told I will be out of a job completely in April ... the price is right!

9. You'd be suprised. I showed your work to the guy who gets ALL my paintings and he said he really liked a few of them. Then he pushed the button that compacts my pictures and drove off in his big truck. He wears a really cool uniform too, BTW.

8. And I'm very old. You'd probably do much better than you realize. :D

7. I like that idea. (I would like to say, however, that the gentleman I'm waiting on is clearly operating on a different level than many of the also-very-competent artists in my area. He's just UNBELIEVABLE, and well worth the patience on my part.)

6. Oddly enough my significant other had the same idea. I just finished the bathroom and she has a hallway lined up next.

5. But of course :D

4. Wow ... it's just now beginning to grow out after my last escape from BuddhaWorld, USA.

3. No comment :D

2. And I'll reciprocate.

1. How about meditation teacher? I'm MUCH better at that than painting portraits.

Thanks for the reply, Jeff, and I will in fact take you up on it. It has been my experience that fellow students often have much to contribute.

Minh "Now Taught By Jeff Fuchs" Thong :D

Not that Jeff wouldn't be the greatest teacher, Minh you should see if Tom Edgerton ever teaches in your area.

Oddly enough, when I first started painting - having decided that I wanted to concentrate on portraiture - I searched thru all the artists listed within SOG to get an idea what real professional oil portraiture looked like. I already knew it didn't look like the 'portraits' I saw hanging in some of the local galleries (winking). And while ALL of the artists here are obviously polished and professional, paintings by one artist in particular really struck me personally as living, breathing representations of real people with all the concomitant human emotions. The work was, to me - and I realize this is subjective - just really something special. I later discovered not only that this artist also lived in Greensboro, but that he briefly occupied a studio space a block from my office and I had probably seen him there and not realized who he was.

Though I've been drawing and painting a very short time, in November I reached a point that I felt ready to approach a teacher and when I started searching I discovered that Mr. Edgerton does indeed teach. So, he is one of two local artists I have been pestering to accept me as a student, and indeed I have been able to speak with him recently about that very thing.

Currently, he is unable to take another student on, but graciously made a couple recommendations of teachers in the Raleigh area. As with most things in life "Good things come to those who wait". So rather than begin somewhere else, I have decided to just wait until Mr. Edgerton is able to accept another student. He is the artist I most want to study under and so I will wait patiently and pick up what I can, where I can.

And I'll also pick Jeff's brain from time-to-time as well. :D

Minh Thong

Maybe I haven't stated my case strongly enough. Did I mention I supply the pencils?

Seriously, when you get a teacher, I hope you share some of the lessons you learn along the way. In college, my fine art classes were all freshman/sophmore level. After that, I took mostly design classes, so I wouldn't mind the inside scoop on the advanced lessons.

Of course, like most college art programs these days, my school's fine art program didn't value basic skills. The senior shows all seemed to emphasize abstract work. The design program stressed hand skills and creative solutions, but we weren't doing portraits.

I just got Tony Ryder's book this weekend. I've read half of it, and I feel that his approach gives a very methodical process for capturing reality. I don't know if I'd spend 30 hours drawing a figure from life, like he does, though. On amazon.com, I saw some negative reviews, but I found that I can apply his methods pretty quickly. I did a quick study last night, and honed in on a likeness with greater predictability than I had in the past. Give it a look.

I'm somewhat nonplussed by all of these comments, which I sincerely appreciate. As I told Minh, I only teach sporadically, somewhat because of space limitations which I hope to rectify in the coming year. But mostly it's because I see myself as a struggling student and am usually stumbling about in "learner's mind" and it doesn't occur to me.

Minh, and everyone, take advantage of whatever opportunities for learning come your way, wherever you find them. I lost a decade after art school not using my training, and have had to run to catch up in these last years.

Consequently, the only REAL mistake I think anyone makes is to stop working in the face of adversity. All other hurdles can be overcome with time and practice.

And, holy cow (!) please call me Tom.

[QUOTE]Steven,

I am curious about this, if you could elaborate that would be great.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote: And the

Jeff,

If you like Ryder's book (I did), check out his web site, especially this demo.

Charcoal drawing

I wish his book covered more of the facial drawing aspects of a model, but he said I would have to take one of his classes and/or visit the demo's link above.

Hello Everyone,

I find all your comments very interesting and couldn

;) Isn't life a hoot! I have not been here in a while due to - well, living life - instead of my painting. I couldn't stop reading this thread and found myself truly relating to much of it. I thoroughly enjoyed those by you, Jeff and Minh; my significant other is beginning to feel not so significant at times.

Must be that beautiful full moon that helped tug at my heartstrings while reading some of these, as I related to some so much, and more as I strive to continue to read here on this great Forum and apply that which is so graciously shared.

I am so pleased and thankful for all of you. I hope I never appear unappreciative to those who give their time and share their expertise. But in all honesty, my last post or two actually had no responses at all and I dared not comment or inquire as to the reason, for fear of seeming a cry baby or whining. Truth :exclamati :?

I had applied all of the suggestions given here about one of my paintings but admit I did not post often in between to show progress. I work so much slower than all of you it seems. I have few commissions and work on other types of oils, having several going at one time. I finally finished the portrait that I had corrected, and by that time I had the plans for a presentation in order, set and dated, and had to show. Not to say I was unhappy with it at all, but admit (shamelessly) that I didn't follow through over and over with you all to get final advice.

Fear had set in, and I felt that any and even a tiny sad note here before my presentation (although all meant in good faith and I usually welcome your advice no matter how harsh) could make me crazy at the presentation and it would be too late to correct any of it anyway. What can I say?

I love this site and fall into a category to which I do not always feel that I measure up, but am striving to work harder and do just that. I do not take photos, but occasionally, and then must develop the entire roll before I can post the image here. By the time that is done and I receive your replies, I have completed the painting.

Please note that this is not complaining on my part, but that ole full moon is certainly working overtime tonight, and my words here indeed show the outcome. I do not post often, but please don't forget about me as you have all helped me through many a difficult time within the past year or so; some of that actually being with my painting, and all that life has to offer.

Whew - love the Cafe.

Thank you for your kind words, Beth. I critique here mostly just to make myself feel qualified. Most of the artists here are better artists than I. But I critique anyway.

I learned something from my little granddaughter who is five years old, and from my son, her father. I was giving her a little piano lesson, which she indeed wanted me to give her. In only a minute, she was done, and wanted to teach me something. I was so amused, and related it to my son. He told me that that is how he teaches her the violin. That is her little way. She has to take turns being teacher. You teach a little, she teaches a little.

Kind a like critiquing. We all are learning here, and we all want to teach as well. That's the way it is.

Dear friends,

As I see it, we all value honest, direct, insightful feedback, yet it is frankly quite painful to be "dissed" in public. "Public" includes an open internet forum such as this one where we all use our real names.

There are a few cherished artists (not necessarily on this Forum) who I can count on to tell me exactly what's gone wrong and where in my work. They can be blunt - very! - but they don't go public with harsh comments. (Incidentally, the worst kind of artist "friend" you can have does exactly the opposite: says nice things to your face but trashes you publicly... as if you won't find out about it. This is an ugly fact of life in the art world.)

I strongly suggest that anybody wanting a serious critique should do some private emailing to an artist whose work you admire, or whose comments are sensitive, accurate and insightful. This Forum contains plenty of those artists. People will be more honest in their critique if they know they won't embarrass you publicly. (And if you can't be criticized privately, you have to question whether you seriously want to improve.) I, for one, am always very flattered when someone wants my help with his work. And I've done my share of emailing around for private advice.

Jeff and Minh, you are two very funny guys.

Beth, I have never before in my life been called 'vivacious'! Must be the photo.

Best wishes,
Linda

Linda,

I can appreciate your thoughts and feelings on this. However, we tend to discourage too many private emailings.

First of all, one of the main reaons for having a Critiques section is so all artists can learn from the critique. To have the critique occur privately defeats that purpose.

The other issue is that there are many more members who want critiques than professionals who are qualified to give a critique. We have had the situation where these pros have become very overloaded with requests of various types from the Forum members. Usually when a pro feels they have something worthwhile to contribute and feel they can be helpful to a request for critique, they will do so.

I'm thinking the better approach is to allow a pro to contact an artist privately if they'd like to do so. I'm not saying no one can contact a pro, so for those reading, please don't interpret in this way. But, I don't want to encourage private critiques as a standard thing. If anything, it should be the exception or after a member has been here for a while and developed some kind of relationship with one or more of the pros.

Hi Cynthia,

I see your point. However, if I were a pro who was overloaded with email requests, I just wouldn't answer them, or I'd answer them with the response that I don't have time to do private email critiques.

It takes years for an artist to go from being a pithed frog to a tough old shrew in the face of indifference or criticism. I am just pointing out that it's harder to undergo this process in public rather than in a relatively private venue, as in a conversation with your crusty art teacher. Ultimately, the people who persevere are those who make art because they have to.

Best regards,
Linda