Too many knees?

Mara Schasteen · 12-11-2008, 01:52 PM

After two photo shoots, and over 300 photographs, my client chose this image which she feel best portrayed the personality of each of her children. I took a wide variety of poses and although there are others I like better, I want to satisfy her.

This photo is cropped to the dimensions of a 24" x 20" canvas. She requested that I crop it so that a little bit of the red fence shows in the background. To meet that request, I had to include more knees and shins than I like. Are there too many limbs in this composition leading the eye every which way? Any suggestions for minimizing this problem? This is my first post to this section, and I am really excited to hear your feedback. Thanks!

Amanda Grosjean · 12-11-2008, 02:47 PM

Hi Mara,

Personally, I think I would crop the canvas even more. I think because the kids are so huddled together it would look less snapshot-y with a long thin profile. Also I would be concerned with the way the little boys toes are cut off. I would consider moving the bottom up to just below the girl's pinky on the left and a bit above the fence on the the top right. Looking at it that way, (reducing the knees to just shapes) they will be fine, especially because the boys pants are a different color so it breaks up the monotony. Just a thought.

PS. I ADORE your "lost in imagination" painting.

Claudemir Bonfim · 12-11-2008, 05:06 PM

You've got a few problems here.
Yes, I think there are too many knees, not because of the position, but because of photograph distortion. They are too big.
Another problem regarding distortion is the size of the heads, The head of the girl with a scarf is too big in comparison to the other two ones and her hand is way too small.
You'll have to correct the values too. The boy is in complete darkness.
There are no catchlights that will make the faces pop out of the canvas.
You have a flat image, that's a very nice photo, but I'm not sure how it will look on canvas.
Remember to not crop joints like elbows, writs, etc.

I'd like to see Garth's and Mike's comments here, they are our photograph wizards.

But if you chose to keep up with the job, I'm sure you'll impress us all.

Mischa Milosevic · 12-12-2008, 07:49 AM

Draw all out but the young mans knees, think his knees as they be streached out and not bent.

Do the wash and bring it as near as perfect as you can. Due each figure separate, when doing the wash-in, which will give you plenty of time to finish each person as you would like. When you have this done then you can see what you need to adjust and then adjust accordingly. Concentrate on the drawing if the drawing is correct the rest will be corect.

I hope this helps

Alexandra Tyng · 12-12-2008, 12:59 PM

Mara, I just want to add one thing to the very helpful critiques you have already gotten here. That is, remember YOU ARE THE ARTIST! Although pleasing the client is an important aspect of portrait painting, don't let the client tell you what to do. After listening to the client and taking into consideration his/her wishes, go back to your studio and create a proposal out of of what you feel is the best combination of the client's input and your vision. You need to make the preliminary decision and then talk to the client in a way that wins him/her over to your proposal. You should never agree to paint a portrait that raises concerns before you start. There is a way of doing this that is totally positive and non-confrontational. You can do this and still never disagree with the client. But remember that you have to believe in your vision before you can convince the client of it.

Also, if the family lives near you, you can always go back and take more photos. There is nothing unprofessional about this.

Mike McCarty · 12-12-2008, 02:30 PM

Quote:

I took a wide variety of poses and although there are others I like better, I want to satisfy her.

The desire to satisfy a client is a strong one - the customer is always right. I think this concept is a good one in almost every manner of business enterprise. Even in the business of commissioned portraiture, however, our business is bit different.

Consider the difference between your job and that of a professional personal chef. The client comes to the chef and says he would like a lunch of creme brulee topped with collard greens with a side of Jello pudding. The chef agrees and prepares the dishs. The client enjoys and proclaims the chef to be the greatest in the land. Another satisfied client - everybody wins.

The difference between that chef and any portrait artist is this: with the chef - no evidence remains of his work or the choices that he made - all that is left is client satisfaction. Genius!

And still, we want to please. My suggestion is this: NEVER SHOW A CLIENT A REFERENCE THAT YOU WOULDN'T WANT TO PAINT. Most laymen are not capable of making good choices. In fact, their emotional attachment will lead them in exactly the wrong direction.

There is a simple solution: go through your work in private and choose only the ones that you believe are worthy. If none are worthy you then have to go back and do it again. When you present your options to the client, and they inquire as to the other 95 images, you give your explanation: the characteristics of a successful painted portrait go beyond those of a mere "good photograph." One of the most (if not the most) important aspects of my job is to make that judgement.

Chris Saper · 12-12-2008, 06:01 PM

Dear Mara,

I do not think this is a suitable reference photo for a painting, and I would recommend against proceeding with it; I can only say that I wouldn

Stanka Kordic · 12-13-2008, 09:27 AM

Just to chime in with all the excellent feedback..its a nice photo, but nice photos do not necessarily make good paintings. Please DO edit before you show clients any new shots. You are the professional, and most importantly, your signature will live on that canvas. The painting has to be yours.

I also feel that 24 x 20 is a bit too small for 3 figures at 3/4 length.

Good Luck!
Stanka

Mara Schasteen · 12-13-2008, 06:15 PM

OK, I know that all over this site there are entries filled with how awesome this site is for the growing portrait artist.... even so, I'd like to add my HOORAY! I just haven't had these kind of critique opportunitties in my entire career as an illustrator/potrait artist. I majored in Marketing/Design in college and didn't take one single painting class - in fact, I have NEVER had a painting class, or any formal training in portraiture, oils, photography, etc. I have suffered from a serious case of deluded confidence these years past, not having anyone around me to tell me where I could improve and how to become better. It's almost a joke to me how many paintings I have sold and how successful I've been, riding on the coat tails of my God given talent. I'm feeling this really intense urge to jump in the air. I think the potential that I know is inside me is rising ever closer to the surface.

Back to the topic at hand, I have been convinced to go for a third photo shoot with this family. I was certain that out of 300+ photos, I'd have something to post here as a possible alternate solution, but I can't find one that is just perfect. It feels so good to know that I am not going to start this painting until I am confident that it will be successful.

My client really wants a casual and fun portrait of her kids. My attempt to catch them looking natural and sweet, in perfect lighting and with no funky poses or goofy looks on any of their faces is proving to be a huge challenge! Before I go back for that third shoot, I'd like to go ahead and post my choice for their portrait. This one still breaks some of the rules, but I am curious to see how you feel it compares.

To the 6 of you who have taken time out of your day to help me out - -

I'll take you out to dinner next time you are in Wyoming

Alexandra Tyng · 12-13-2008, 08:10 PM

Mara, trust your instincts! I like this a lot better. Maybe you can work further with this. Chris pointed out that one single photo usually doesn't have everything in it, that you can expect to work from a combination of photos. If you have the children pose again in this spot, try to get them in as near as possible to the exact pose. Then back up and zoom in to correct for distortion. (Even as is, there is less distortion here.) Expressions can be changed as long as the head fits onto the body. Remember the photo can not only be cropped, but it can be extended, so you can fine tune the placement of the figures.

But in your 3rd photo shoot, try a couple of other poses, too. Sometimes I arrive with one idea and end up liking another one better.

Whichever one you end up liking best, think of how you are going to sell your idea to the parents. Aesthetically, compositionally, how is this superior? Why is simplicity of background important? How does the "off center" focal point create interest? Etc.! Convince yourself first and the client will be more likely to trust your vision. Sometimes you will have to make adjustments to please the client, but I find that most clients want to believe in the wisdom of the professional.