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04-30-2002, 04:43 PM
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#31
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Associate Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Location: Bellingham, WA
Posts: 166
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Additives
There have been many interesting points brought out here, although on a slightly different note, I have read that Rembrandt used a quartz powder and sometimes a glass powder to help create that sparkle effect that some of his paintings have. I've asked some of the better art supply stores about this and got no positive responce. Also it would be interesting to know more about the mediums used by Titian.
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04-30-2002, 06:12 PM
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#32
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SOG Member FT Professional
Joined: Jun 2001
Location: Penngrove, CA
Posts: 122
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Rob,
My reference to science was in regard to the conservation scientists at the National Gallery in London who analyzed paint samples from Old Master paintings and found no mastic or other resins in the the paintings of Rembrandt, Titian, etc., and to the conservation scientists with whom Robert Gamblin works in the development of his products. This is in contradiction to the many claims by Jacques Maroger and the advocates of his medium that this medium was used by the painters we refer to as the Old Masters, which includes those of the 16th and 17th centuries. According to the conservation scientists, these substances are not in evidence in the preponderance of oil paintings done before about 1750, and were largely abandoned by artists in favor of hard resins in the latter decades of the 19th century due to the problems that had begun to show up in old paintings done with various megilp concoctions containing mastic resin.
My comments did not mention you, but if you took offense under the assumption that they reflected on you, I readily apologize. I might also point out, since that came up, that I am owed a long overdue apology from you for the many highly insulting and unwarranted comments you directed against me in your own forum, and in light of my not having received any such apology, I find it most ironic that you raise an objection to anything you perceive as offensive coming from me. That being said, my comments were in reference to the objectivity one might expect of a person selling a product when offering an evaluation of a competing product versus his/her own, rather than a matter of impugning your personal honesty. One can believe what he/she says whole-heartedly and still be mistaken, as is often the case. In such an instance, honesty is not the issue. I believe it is prudent in instances when a manufacturer's claims are at odds with current science to place greater credence in the best science, rather than accept on faith what someone selling a product has to say, whether the person seems honest, sincere and totally in earnest or not. You have impugned the honesty and integrity of Robert Gamblin and other manufacturers in much the same manner as you allege I have impugned yours. It might be appropriate to exhibit the same courtesies toward others as we expect others to exhibit towards us. Otherwise we have no legitimate right to complain.
This forum is intended to be for discussions of a technical nature, if I understand correctly; thus, personal issues are beside the point, and irrelevant in that context. In any case, I leave this evening for New York, and will not be able to read or respond to anything you might post until I return, unless I can find an internet cafe and more spare time than I am likely to find while there.
VE
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04-30-2002, 06:41 PM
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#33
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Guest
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Quote:
the conservation scientists with whom Robert Gamblin works in the development of his products. This is in contradiction to the many claims by Jacques Maroger and the advocates of his medium that this medium was used by the painters we refer to as the Old Masters, which includes those of the 16th and 17th centuries.
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I am certainly no apologist for Jacques Maroger and his padded-out book, but the reality is that he did not simply associate with conservators, he was one of the head consevarors at the Louvre and was honored by the French government for his seminal work on uncovering the techniques of Jan Van Eyck. As I recall, the Louvre did not have any exhibits of electric chairs, Barbie dolls or Pez dispenser. The Smithsonian does.
I don't know which "sellers of Maroger's medium" that you might have been referring to in the context of this thread. Perhaps I was wrong to take offense, especially after going into some of the science (science we proved in our labs, not in reading some park rangers compilations and not simply based on anecdotal accounts of what has happened in anyone's paintings. These are tests done with accelerated aging, actinic light generators and chemical atmospheres on test samples that have been recorded and photographed at various stages. So please, name the names of the Maroger's sellers to whom you referred if they were not me and my cohort.
If you stay up with the literature, as I do, you will be familiar with the most recent article delivered in Dublin where a number of respected researchers determined that, if megilp was mixed fresh and in a proper balance of resin, it proved to be exceptionally stable and flexible...much more so than straight oil.
What makes me shake my head is that you first cite that researchers found no signs of resin in this or that master's painting, as if to condemn the practice. While that may or may not be true, it has no bearing on the reality that the megilp/Maroger's medium greatly improves handling. A fact no one familiar with it will deny. Yet, you speak highly of alkyd medium although I'd vouchsafe not one trace of that was found in those same master's paintings.
When referring to the unnamed seller of Maroger's medium, you mentioned that he had a painting delaminate. Gee, Virgil, the same thing happened to me. You mentioned that it was due to an experimental ground. Gee, Virgil, I know that you weren't speaking about me because you are at once honest and forthright and would not deny it as you did above if it were not true, but something like that hapened to me. It was an experimental ground sent by a mid-level manufacturer, like Gamblin. It did crack. But not in the painting that delaminated. So, obviously, I was not the Maroger's seller to whom you referred as having a painting delaminate. How could I be? You denied it, and you are an honest man...and very polite in that honesty.
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04-30-2002, 06:48 PM
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#34
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Guest
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Rochelle, it's apparent that Rembrandt had mastered a number of mediums and used them at various stages of his paintings in order to produce specific effects. He may well have mixed powdered stone into his paint. Velaszquez most certainly did mix whiting (powdered marble) in with his lead white to produce certain effects. Contrary to what one might think, it makes the paint smoother, not chalky and dry.
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04-30-2002, 08:56 PM
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#35
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Juried Member PT 5+ years
Joined: Nov 2001
Location: Stillwater, MN
Posts: 1,801
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As a graduate of a mere land grant agriculture and mechanics university -- if with the questionable atonement value of a subsequent degree from an expensive private law school and considerable studies thereafter in various parts of the world -- I too must be completely unqualified to sort out the vicious, pernicious, thoroughly distasteful personal attacks from the otherwise unhelpful, unconvincing, and -- as to this befuddled potential consumer -- commercially unsuccessful product claims. So I will continue to muddle along with my silly little bottles of "popular" quack oils and varnishes and my base pedigree, land-grant training, and doubtless weak character, and I'm sure The Empire will survive, even if my paintings may not. (That's fine -- the world is not sitting around waiting for my paintings and will not mourn their passing in time.)
Stroke of Genius' Portrait Artist Forum has been, with few lapses, one of the very "last best places" for honour, respect, and civility on the net, for generosity and professional but light-hearted interaction amongst people who love to draw and paint. Gunbelts and shoes and egos are checked at the door. The owner and administrator has worked tirelessly to cultivate this environment. It's a great sadness to me, as an active member with at least an emotional proprietary interest in the site, to have witnessed the importation of the nastiness and vitriol that have led so many of us to abandon other sites.
To the members who haven't been around here long enough to see these things come and go, be assured that the what you're witnessing in this thread is not characteristic of the quality of discourse and camaraderie for which SOG is well known. Don't be discouraged or put off by it. Indeed: consider well everything you "see" here -- including demeanor -- when making your own purchase and practice decisions.
To the long-time and highly esteemed members, notably Mssrs. Drenkow and Elliott, who have once again contributed informatively and civilly, thank you.
Steven
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04-30-2002, 09:56 PM
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#36
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Guest
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I totally agree, Steven. Do not misinterpret any of my references to graduates of land grant colleges speaking outside their areas of expertise. I have several excellent book published by the experts at U.C. Davis about turf grass management and rose grafting. Schools like U.C. Davis plays an important part in an economy that relies much more on agricultual products than on art production.
If I were to want information on international banking practices or medieval English literature, I might search elsewhere.
I don't know why you'd denigrate the education you received at a land grant college unless you wanted to study something for which they were only marginally equiped to teach. Those state schools serve a very important function, after all, not everyone can afford or get into an Ivy League school, just as not everyone would fit well in an art school. The land grant colleges were incorporated to fulfill the needs and aspirations of people, who for whatever reason, could not go to the elite schools.
Judging from the passions that seem stirred, those land grant colleges create a fierce loyalty in their alumni. That is truly wonderful and you should take joy and pride in having attended one.
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04-30-2002, 10:39 PM
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#37
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Juried Member PT 5+ years
Joined: Nov 2001
Location: Stillwater, MN
Posts: 1,801
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Quote:
I don't know why you'd denigrate the education you received at a land grant college
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On the contrary, I was responding to several needless and weightless aspersions cast upon such institutions and the work done there. I'm sorry to say, though, that I'm unfamiliar with your publications on turf management, which no doubt are indeed excellent.
In any event, just to set the record straight, Douglas Drenkow is not the drunkard on this site, I am. I'm a little depressed, too, right now, and I also have a toothache. So I'm lobbying for a lot less ad hominem and comparative C.V. filler and a little more useful information on practices and products, without the personality. Cockfights are illegal on this site. I can make up my own mind, and I've never once been convinced by an argumentative approach as opposed to sound argument -- in fact, the former usually produces an effect opposite that intended.
In any event, there's a stage leaving this thread and I'm getting on it.
Steven
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04-30-2002, 11:24 PM
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#38
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PHOTOGRAPHY MODERATOR SOG Member '03 Finalist Taos SOPA '03 HonMen SoCal ASOPA '03 Finalist SoCal ASOPA '04 Finalist Taos SOPA
Joined: Dec 2001
Location: Tulsa, Oklahoma
Posts: 2,674
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All this confusion regarding mediums... why I went to the movies the other day and asked the gent at the concession for a small soda. He informed me that the smallest one they had was a medium! Well I says to him: if a medium is the smallest you have then its not a medium, it's a small. He felt pretty silly I'm sure.
__________________
Mike McCarty
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04-30-2002, 11:48 PM
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#39
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FT Pro, Mem SOG,'08 Cert Excellence PSA, '02 Schroeder Portrait Award Copley Soc, '99 1st Place PSA, '98 Sp Recognition Washington Soc Portrait Artists, '97 1st Prize ASOPA, '97 Best Prtfolio ASOPA
Joined: Jun 2001
Location: Peterborough, NH
Posts: 1,114
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Soooooo Mike, what's a nice guy like you doing in a thread like this? Did you say that there's a small medium at large in your local theatre?
After a bunch of bad jokes I can usually depend on the audience to run, not walk, to the nearest exit Go on to the next thread folks, this one is, or ought to be, finished...
I hope that I'm the last one here so I can lock this thing up and toss away the key.
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