Greetings from Madrid

[Patricia Joyce]

Originally Posted by Sharon Knettell

"I don't think the book on painting has been closed, it has only not been taken out of the library much in the last 80 years."

The book has not been taken out here in Cleveland that I can see. I am currently taking an oil painting class. We are in the fifth week of a sixteen week semester and just last Wednesday the professor (who has been teaching for 14 years, graduated with a degree/masters in art about 20 years ago) lectured and showed slides of abstract art. Would love to quote her exact words, but what she did say was that the class is now done with realism, we needed to start with realism but will spend the rest of the semester (11 more weeks) on learning to express ourselves with oils and color. To quote the remark she makes over and over, "you don't need to know how to draw to be a successful artist. It might help you once in a while, but it is not necessary".

This is the very reason I have no interest in getting a degree. I take classes to further my skills...I'm getting more discouraged by the week with this art instructor. It is a slumping, disappointing experience to run into this time and time again when what I want is to learn realism. She brought in two of her paintings she will be exhibiting. Very disappointing, and not suprised to see that this working artists does not know how to draw and it is pathetically represented in her landscape paintings.

Students like myself depend heavily on this forum for our education. I am very grateful for this community and don't know where I'd be without it.

[Allan Rahbek]

Originally Posted by Patricia Joyce

[ "you don't need to know how to draw to be a successful artist. It might help you once in a while, but it is not necessary".

.

Patricia,

This is a very revealing quote and the hope for many "artists", including David Hockney.

If you know how to look like an artist, you will get the success.

This could be a topic in the "Cafe Guerbois"

Allan

[Carlos Ygoa]

Oh my, what did I start?...

Patricia, thanks for reacting. I have seen your posts and attachments (like the Vermeer study, the Rubens study, etc) and can see you are sincere in your efforts. The Rubens study I really liked, and the Vermeer copy seemed to me to be quite good (that was, if I am not mistaken, your first attempt in colour?)

I taught drawing and painting from my private studio for about fifteen years, and I think it is safe to say that if my pupils still remember me, they would remember me for my obsession with basic drawing. Can't run if you don't know how to walk. I think everyone in the forum would agree with this. There is nothing more fundamental than drawing and nothing more wrong than starting the building with the roof. I would also emphasize the importance of tonal values and make my students spend some time, once in oils, with grisaille or monochrome exercises. I'm not saying anything really new here, but yet, it would never cease to amaze me when I used to have students come to me who were in their third year in Fine Atrs who had great difficulty with some very basic drawing...my point being that I think this "express thyself" trend is something like a universal plague. Non-representational art has its place, doubtless, but the foundation still has to be there, otherwise the work invariably looks hollow and with little substance.

But maybe Allan is right and we should take this to the Cafe.

The sala right next to where I am doing my copy in the Prado has portraits by Antonio Moro (16th century) and he is a new discovery for me. Amazing work.

[Allan Rahbek]

Carlos,

I don

[Patricia Joyce]

Carlos,

I am very flattered that you took the time out of your day to look at my posts here on the forum. Thank you very much for your encouraging words and I am quite flattered by your positive remarks.

I have started a new topic in the Cafe, as was suggested here. How I wish I could find someone in Cleveland, Ohio who is as talented as you are and willing to teach representational art. Cleveland woefully suffers from the "express thyself universal plague"!!

[Allan Rahbek]

Originally Posted by Carlos Ygoa

The sala right next to where I am doing my copy in the Prado has portraits by Antonio Moro (16th century) and he is a new discovery for me. Amazing work.

Hi Carlos,

If you were going to copy a work of Moro, would you use the same technique as him? He reminds me of Holbein, with the same sharp eye for individualism. Did he use tempera for his under painting?

Allan

[Carlos Ygoa]

Patricia,

Thank you for your kind words. I meant it about your works...I like going through the attachments of the other members (thank God for DSL lines and flat rates!) and I remember yours well. I also read your topic in the Cafe. I also wanted to say to you "quit your class" but Michele Rushworth did it for me. Good luck on your upcoming workshop in Atlanta and yes, bring your oil box. When do we see the finished Vermeer copy?

Allan,

Here

[Allan Rahbek]

Thank you Carlos, I will order the book.

Looking forward to see your Antonio Moro post. I have never seen any of his pictures before you pointed them out, but I think that he is a very strong painter.

Allan

[Carlos Ygoa]

Allan,

Whenever I make a copy I try as much as possible to use the same technique as the original author, even have, at times chosen canvases that had similar weaves to the original canvas (and of course wood panel if the original was on wood). Sometimes, however, the cloth was not available, so I've had to settle. I do not choose the same pigments as the original artist, though. That would be excessive for me (and unavailable in some cases).

Antonio Moro (Anthonis Mors, or something like that, if I'm not mistaken, his original Flemish name), just like any flemish painter of his time employed the traditional technique of the grisaille/verdaccio underpainting, subsequently glazing with transparent colour layers. I think, however, that he used oils also for his underpainting and not tempera. More of an educated guess mainly because of the time in which he lived. I think had he been around in the 1300's instead of the 1500's, then he would have used tempera. I have to verify this with the museum archives (their records usually state"mixed media" if there is a tempera underpainting and just simply "oil" if that was used exclusively. He is also a new discovery to me and I personally can't tell just by looking at the painting in front of me whether or not there is a tempera layer underneath (don't know if anyone can).

Yes, he is a very solid painter and the portraits I have seen are great psychological studies aside from being elegant and courtly. He was a great influence in the work of another court painter Sanchez Coello. (Forgive my rambling on, I will leave you now to read other things...)

[Michele Rushworth]

I just saw a wonderful portrait today by Antonio Moro. There is a travelling exhibit from Spain at the Seattle Art Museum with several Velazquez portraits, Rubens, Goya, etc, etc. I wasn't familiar with Moro's work but it was one of my favorite pieces in the show.