Portrait Artist Forum    

Go Back   Portrait Artist Forum > Cafe Guerbois Discussions - Moderator: Michele Rushworth
FAQ Community Calendar Today's Posts Search


Reply
 
Topic Tools Search this Topic Display Modes
Old 02-10-2003, 01:49 AM   #11
Marvin Mattelson Marvin Mattelson is offline
SOG Member
FT Professional
'04 Merit Award PSA
'04 Best Portfolio PSA
'03 Honors Artists Magazine
'01 Second Prize ASOPA
Perm. Collection- Ntl. Portrait Gallery
Perm. Collection- Met
Leads Workshops
 
Marvin Mattelson's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2002
Location: Great Neck, NY
Posts: 1,093
Debate able




Painting exists on two levels as does everything else in life. According to Eastern Philosophy these two opposite yet complimentary extremes are called yin and yang. Every thing in life is a function of balance. We light fire to stave off the cold of winter. We go swimming to counter the heat of summer.

In painting the two extremes we try to balance are the physical property of the paint (the physical) and the spirit of the artist (the ethereal). If either one is in short supply the other suffers. There have been many debates about the validity of "modern vs classical" and I hope this thread doesn't degrade into that. It's a horse we've more than beaten to death.

The point I would like to make is that the greatest painters had an abundance of technical ability which allowed them the freedom to express their spirituality.

In this regard I would argue that Duchamp was far less successful than Ingres (aren't we all) in either respect.

I personally think it is foolhardy to rationalize that too much technique will somehow give you a better opportunity to operate on a higher artistic plane. I've yet to see that wish come true.

However, I believe that to rely only on one's technical ability may only get you half way there but without the facility to express your ideas in paint without compromise, you can't get there at all.

The mastery of painting cannot take place if one tries to copy or match what is before them. Pigments offer a limited scope in their ability to capture the world around us. Value-wise the brilliance of the sun compared to the shadow accents of velvet in a dark cave are literally thousands of times greater than the range between black and white paint. No pigment can match the brilliance of a scarlet rose in sunlight.

To recreate the sensation of said rose, one would have to subdue the colors around it, if indeed the goal was to replicate its brilliance. In order to paint the luminosity of a lit match, I would darken the values around it. How can a fire seem aglow if I were to depict the value of a white shirt with very light or white paint. If I want to appear slim I hang out with Sumo wrestlers.

So trying to match a color to what is in front of us is impossible unless we work in a limited range of values, hues and chromas which conform to the properties inherent to paint.

"My" Paxton, Bouguereau, and Vermeer chose to depict value at the sacrifice of copying the exact colors around them. So do Pino and Wyeth for that matter. Does this mean that they chose to ignore color. Obviously not. They created beautiful color effects because of the arrangements of color relationships and not by copying the colors exactly.

Sorolla on the other hand went for the color at the expense of his values and sometimes his paintings have areas that are visually confusing.

A camera attempts to copy the colors and values it sees and translates this to film. The lightest areas get bleached out and/or the darkest areas clog up with black. The range of photo paper is very similar to that of paint.

Living in New York and going to the auction previews at Christie's and Sotheby's I've seen over one hundred Bouguereau paintings. His flesh tones are not realistic at all, if you analyze them stroke for stroke. But they are incredibly lifelike by virtue of the interplay between his color notes. Paxton's skin tones glow due to the same phenomena. Paxton came as close as anyone in recreating the look of accurate color and accurate values but never copied. This is "trickery" of color and tone at the highest level.

As a teacher I feel it is my responsibility to remember what it is like to not know how to do whatever it is I'm trying to teach. To be able to teach how to solve the problem at hand, one must start from the position of not knowing, just like the student. Then we discover the answer together.

Obviously the goal is to mix the color we desire and if we can shoot from the hip all the better, but the best way to learn anything is to break it down into digestible parts not trying to hip shoot.

Be it color or spirit what you see is what you paint. You can't paint what you are not looking for, be it color, spirit or value. Capturing one's essence is only possible when you are sensitive enough to see it. You can't paint what you don't know is there. Too many are happy to just paint the features well.

My own personal definition of a portrait is a soul with a person painted around it. You can be the judge as to whether I achieved that end in this detail from my portrait of Julia. http://www.fineartportrait.com/julia.html
Attached Images
 
__________________
Marvin Mattelson
http://www.fineartportrait.com
[email protected]
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2003, 03:25 AM   #12
Steven Sweeney Steven Sweeney is offline
Juried Member
PT 5+ years
 
Steven Sweeney's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2001
Location: Stillwater, MN
Posts: 1,801
Color note

Moseying back to the mechanics of color matching . . .

Most often when I hear someone speaking of getting the
__________________
Steven Sweeney
[email protected]

"You must be present to win."
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2003, 10:45 AM   #13
Peggy Baumgaertner Peggy Baumgaertner is offline
MODERATOR EMERITUS
SOG Member
FT Professional
'00 Best of Show, PSA
'03 Featured, Artists Mag
Conducts Workshops
 
Peggy Baumgaertner's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2001
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 233
It would be terrific if every artist were wired to see, evaluate, and reproduce an image instantaneously. Linda and Tim seem to be advocating this more intuitive painting method.

But this seems familiar territory to anyone with grade school aged children. For the last few decades, schools have been teaching the "look-say" or "whole word" method of reading. The students have been taught to see, memorize, and recognized words at a glance. The opposing teaching method is phonics. In this method, the student is taught to sound out the letters or letter combinations. This has been a HUGE battle in schools as the whole word proponents battle the phonics crowd.

It also seems entirely unnecessary. The fact is that some learn better by working in Tim's manner (whole word), while some learn better with Marvin's method (phonics).

As a teacher, I agree with Marvin that the easiest way to impart the basic knowledge of putting a painting (portrait) together is by breaking the parts down into digestible chunks.

Finally, I remember John Sanden in a discussion about what was more important, drawing, color or value. I never found that it was necessary to sacrifice one element for the other, and have separately studied drawing (ateliers), color (the Cape School) and value (early Cedric Egeli).

I can tell you this, if the color is wrong but the value is right, the painting will still work. If the color is right but the value is wrong, the painting will fall apart.

Peggy
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2003, 03:41 PM   #14
Tom Edgerton Tom Edgerton is offline
SOG Member
'02 Finalist, PSA
'01 Merit Award, PSA
'99 Finalist, PSA
 
Tom Edgerton's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2001
Location: Greensboro, NC
Posts: 819
I have to agree with Peggy.

Saying that any of these factors--drawing (position, shape), value, color--are more important than the other is assigning qualitative "value" (value in a different sense) to factors that are essentially neutral. They all interact and support each other. Beyond that, saying that seeing and translating as a whole, vs. considering each factor independently, is a pointless discussion. The key is to find whatever verbal or intuitive construct that works for you. Painting while simultaneously asking oneself,"Am I seeing these things holistically or as separate factors?" is like playing a good game of tennis and simultaneously thinking, "I am playing a good game of tennis." Who cares what's going on in there, if it works for you?

And I also have found that beginning painters seem to get "value" better if it's broken out separately, because most of them come into painting so preoccupied with hue and chroma to the exclusion of all else.

I will reveal my own bias, though, and reiterate what Ray Kinstler has always said: a color isn't right until its value is right. And my own experience mirrors Peggy's--if the colors sing but the values (the mechanics for describing light) are squirrely, the realistic effect and overall cohesion are pretty drastically undermined.
__________________
TomEdgerton.com
"The dream drives the action."
--Thomas Berry, 1999
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2003, 03:43 PM   #15
Morris Darby Morris Darby is offline
Associate Member
 
Morris Darby's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2002
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 55
Speaking for the "others"...

However different, this road or that road, so long as the debate continues at a friendly rate, I am learning a great deal from both sides...well, (Peggy) from all three sides now.

This is exactly what I come to the forum for.

I would have to say this is one of the most "color"ful conversations with the greatest "value." What do "hue" think?
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2003, 11:22 PM   #16
Timothy C. Tyler Timothy C. Tyler is offline
Inactive
 
Timothy C. Tyler's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2002
Location: Siloam Springs, AR
Posts: 911
Here's a point

If anywhere a picture is worth a thousand words it's in these discussions. (This debate is drifting from my point but it is getting deep, informative and fun, so I'll play.) I honestly am honored to argue with an informed group like this!


This idea of learning to see and nailing color as you see it is not unrelated to the manner you choose to paint. I try to fit what I see as closely as I can as fast as I can. I usually must try several times but each time I get closer. Form is defined by light flowing over it. Hard light will bleach color out. Example below by Anders Zorn.
Attached Images
 
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2003, 11:24 PM   #17
Timothy C. Tyler Timothy C. Tyler is offline
Inactive
 
Timothy C. Tyler's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2002
Location: Siloam Springs, AR
Posts: 911
Soft light

With soft light-more color (this is not that complicated) Bouguereau...
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2003, 11:31 PM   #18
Timothy C. Tyler Timothy C. Tyler is offline
Inactive
 
Timothy C. Tyler's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2002
Location: Siloam Springs, AR
Posts: 911
Yet

Both are believable and yet I know that Zorn unified his work with a very limited palette and ignored many tangent colors.

Here's Sargent with even less light. This soft warm glow allowed very rich color. As we all know, he painted on this 12 minutes at a time for two summers, every pleasant evening, slowly getting precisely the colors he saw. For me it gets no better (although this is a regrettable jpeg.)
Attached Images
 
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2003, 11:38 PM   #19
Timothy C. Tyler Timothy C. Tyler is offline
Inactive
 
Timothy C. Tyler's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2002
Location: Siloam Springs, AR
Posts: 911
For me

I simply have never seen the worth of doing underpainting and slowly finding color. True color must have the right values, chroma and intensity. As I said earlier, choosing to ignore and being selective is a different argument. That's a discussion about selection/editing. I would never try to paint a soul. Souls and spirits are mostly invisible to me. Gosh, skin is tough enough.

This was a quick sketch I posted elsewhere, done alla prima with warm light. Someone asked about my posting a still life. Color exists in landscapes and still lifes as well as in portraits and we all know what Sargent said about that: "To paint a good portrait you must learn to paint everything, lest you be called a mannerist."
Attached Images
 
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2003, 08:53 PM   #20
Tom Edgerton Tom Edgerton is offline
SOG Member
'02 Finalist, PSA
'01 Merit Award, PSA
'99 Finalist, PSA
 
Tom Edgerton's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2001
Location: Greensboro, NC
Posts: 819
Tim--

Apart from the merits of this discussion, I have to say thanks for the Zorn. I hadn't see this one.

God, what a painter.

Best--TE
__________________
TomEdgerton.com
"The dream drives the action."
--Thomas Berry, 1999
  Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing this Topic: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

 

Make a Donation



Support the Forum by making a donation or ordering on Amazon through our search or book links..







All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:09 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.