Visitors' poll

The reason - well, one of the reasons - why this place is so slow, is that people who aren't registered aren't allowed to post. Some of us would like to ask questions and join in some of the discussions. I know, I know, this is a place for professional portrait painters only, and members don't have time to help others - perhaps that's another reason why the place is slow.

One reason some of us haven't registered is that we have full-time jobs, even though we are very interested in becoming portrait painters. I, for one, do weekly life drawing sessions and plein-air paint during the warmer months, yet find it difficult to find the time to hire and paint from models. As a result, I haven't attempted to register.

Even though I've just started a portrait class with live models, I'm not sure if I will register, because of the elitist attitude here and the taste it's left in my mouth. Oh, by elitist I don't mean quality of work. I find a lot of contemporary portraiture to be quite substandard, looking like poor attempts to imitate photography - subjective call, I know.

Unfortunately, nothing in this poll will influence or change the rules here.

[Steven Sweeney]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Unfortunately, nothing in this poll will influence or change the rules here.

Actually, feedback on the perceived "painting/drawing from life" registration requirement has led to repeated advisories -- more than once in this thread alone -- that such a requirement has long been removed for application. It's a non-issue as far as posting membership is concerned. So an inability to secure or afford models isn't an impediment (to registration, I mean -- hoping to become a professional portrait artist without learning to work from life has its own built-in brick wall.) The administrators have actively sought input through this sometimes painfully open thread and have worked to respond in many ways, often in the background, in considered, subtle ways that may not be apparent. And really, it's quite remarkable, I think, that the tireless owner of the site would provide this access to the Forum so that those who wished to critique it could freely do so. I may not have been able to muster so much grace and equanimity. Who wants to be told that their kids are ugly? Kudos are in order.

Anyway, yes, it is slow. All sites that matter are. Not much of a kaffeeklatsche, usually, but in fairness, it isn't intended to be; lots of other sites do that, and there's no need to replicate it here. More of a library and a reference site. Some cheese and wine is taken, but that's all off-site, and is occasionally reflected in posts.

I assume that by elitist you mean "attitude" and not quality. Hardly unique to this site are a few who misguidedly believe that aspersions cast upon their perceived adversaries and lessers will naturally steer sentiment toward the strident vocalists' preferences, but it always backfires, eventually. Always. I wouldn't spend a lot of time there. When you hear "shrill," adjust the equalizer on your set. Perhaps you've noticed that I don't always follow my own advice. I can be like that.

If by elitist you mean that the ideal is vainly pursued, well . . . the point of the site is to achieve facility in execution as "the best and the brightest," if you will, who are carrying on the traditional portrait tradition. It's a standard worth holding up. Admittedly, it's fairly muddied of late -- which I think accounts for some of the pace of participation -- and visitors could be forgiven for a little confusion about the focus.

As for having a full-time job, that's also been so much addressed in this thread. Almost everyone here has a full-time job, and almost all of them earn their living and their expense accounts in a vocation other than portrait painting. It's always been so. The ones who want it, will work to get it. The rest -- and I include myself in this group -- will stand outside the mansions and the galleries, looking in the windows, and wishing we had been invited to the party.

But -- we were. It's just that many who hold invitations in their hands never show up.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

The reason - well, one of the reasons - why this place is so slow, is that people who aren't registered aren't allowed to post. Some of us would like to ask questions and join in some of the discussions. I know, I know, this is a place for professional portrait painters only, and members don't have time to help others - perhaps that's another reason why the place is slow.

One reason some of us haven't registered is that we have full-time jobs, even though we are very interested in becoming portrait painters. I, for one, do weekly life drawing sessions and plein-air paint during the warmer months, yet find it difficult to find the time to hire and paint from models. As a result, I haven't attempted to register.

Even though I've just started a portrait class with live models, I'm not sure if I will register, because of the elitist attitude here and the taste it's left in my mouth. Oh, by elitist I don't mean quality of work. I find a lot of contemporary portraiture to be quite substandard, looking like poor attempts to imitate photography - subjective call, I know.

Unfortunately, nothing in this poll will influence or change the rules here.

i'm a lurker too who similarly has little time and will not be registering any time soon for that reason. but i do think it's strange you qualify this site as being elitist. have you visited other sites, where moderators can be really rough? i think sog members and moderators are polite and respectful. just wanted to counterbalance your negative view...

Hi Guys,

Whilst I would like to take part in some of the discussions, sadly my work is not up to the required standard for membership, which I can understand.

However there have been topics particularly in the photography section, which, as having been a professional photographer for some 25 years, I feel could have helped with, and which to me are fairly straight forward problems, simple to resolve and give advice about but alas I cannot help because I cannot post, which makes me wonder who's missing out, because I can read, digest and make use of the help and tips given by far more experienced artists than I, but I cannot reciprocate to those professional artists who need help with their photography be it exposure, lighting, copying or help with Photoshop.

Mike Renney

[Cynthia Daniel]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

The reason - well, one of the reasons - why this place is so slow, is that people who aren't registered aren't allowed to post. Some of us would like to ask questions and join in some of the discussions. I know, I know, this is a place for professional portrait painters only, and members don't have time to help others - perhaps that's another reason why the place is slow.

There are many members and moderators who over the years and despite their busy schedules have given untold hours helping others. If you look back on the history, you would see that there are a shameful, but appreciated few who have made huge contributions. But, everyone has their limits on time and contributions that don't put food on the table - unless they are independently wealthy.

Even though I've just started a portrait class with live models, I'm not sure if I will register, because of the elitist attitude here and the taste it's left in my mouth.

I'm sorry you feel that way.

Do you have a bad taste in your mouth when the Portrait Society has a competition and makes awards? Or when the old American Society of Portrait Artists had Signature status for the more accomplished artists? Don't the most prestigious universities have requirements for entry? If this were a Forum for professional nurses only, how would you feel about being rejected if you were just a nurses aide?

The difference with portrait painting is that there is no formal program of certification to say that one has studied, learned, been tested and earned the right to practice as a portrait painter. Anyone who wants to hang out a shingle and say they are a portrait painter can do so. So, if you had seen some of the portraits that were posted for critique before the requirements were instituted, you would understand why we needed to do this.

All organizations that address the professional have requirements for membership. But, our requirement for a certain level of competency is not elitist. Rather, it's defining the purpose and scope of the Forum. As has been said many times before, this Forum was never created to be all things to all people.

And, if you had met some of the talented and generous artists here who have contributed greatly and spoke to them face to face - you would probably change your mind.

Unfortunately, the Internet has led many to a sense of entitlement - anyone should be able to post anywhere and it should all be free. Yet, most of these people have little clue as to the huge investment in maintaining such a Forum.

I am not sure how assisting budding artists into the profession of portrait painting applies to me. For fifty of my seventy-six years, continuously and without interruption, supported my family by producing print advertising. Currently retired, I have, in this past year, returned to my earlier plan to paint portraits.

By your choice this group is for professional portrait painters and serious students. Based on my experience and age I may not qualify, however if I were twenty-seven instead of seventy-six with my knowledge and skill, I would have no doubts or second thoughts about qualifying as a serious student

Ed

[Alexandra Tyng]

Originally Posted by Edward A. Kole

Based on my experience and age I may not qualify, however if I were twenty-seven instead of seventy-six with my knowledge and skill, I would have no doubts or second thoughts about qualifying as a serious student.

Ed, I don't understand. Why would your age and experience disqualify you from being a serious student? Anyone, of any age, can be a serious student. There are also many artists who went to art school, had careers in computer graphics or illustration or other art related fields, then decided to become fine artists later in life. These are highly skilled and experienced individuals who are still open to learning. Or maybe I have misunderstood you.

Originally Posted by Alexandra Tyng

Ed, I don't understand. Why would your age and experience disqualify you from being a serious student? Anyone, of any age, can be a serious student. There are also many artists who went to art school, had careers in computer graphics or illustration or other art related fields, then decided to become fine artists later in life. These are highly skilled and experienced individuals who are still open to learning. Or maybe I have misunderstood you.

Regarding "Anyone, of any age, can be a serious student."

I think the formost purpose of this group is to teach, discuss and exchange ideas about the art of painting portraits. It is a forum open to "profssional artists" and "serious students." Regarding "students," the purpose of this group is to prepare the student to sell and/or exhibit his portraits and if he is of that mind, to teach others.

There comes a time when the "serious student" [or amateur] becomes a "professional." As in other professions, professionalism happens when that person earns his living from selling his work.

Galleries and Agents are essencial to a portrait artist's success. They will invest their time and money only when there is a more than a promise to profit from their "front end" investments.

Because I am a seventy-six years old "unknown," and regardless how "professional" my portraits appear, the fact remains, profitwise, an agent's "window of opportunity" is more shut than open.

Bottom Line for "Anyone, of any age, can be a serious student." It is in the context of this conclusion that I question my "qualification" I do not intend to be a "Professional Student."

I also hold no illusions as I recognize that I am, for my age and anonymity, not a promising property. Nonetheless, I will continue to paint portraits because that is what I love to do. I will also continue, if permitted, to visit this forum as a "visitor" though I know a participating "membership" will accelerate my "professionalism."

Still, you may be right and I may be wrong. As a student my "window of opportunity" is wide open, but as an agent/gallery represented "professional" that "window" is, for the most part, closed.

Ed

[Alexandra Tyng]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

as an agent/gallery represented "professional" that "window" is, for the most part, closed.

Ed,

With all due respect, you sound pessimistic rather than realistic.

The fact is, there are other ways to be "successful" as a portrait artist besides relying on galleries and agents. I painted commissioned portraits for 30-some years without outside representation, before recently signing up with a portrait broker. Most commercial galleries won't even show portraits. Many artists get commissions from friends, business associates, etc., on their own with a little hustling. It's a nice way to make anywhere from a little extra income to a substantial income while doing what you love to do. I think there are many artists on this forum who would attest to that fact. Lots of artists started painting late in life and have had time to make a modest success, and sometimes artists achieve more than that.

The key is to look at portrait painting as not just a commercial enterprise, but as a creative endeavor. Then you will see the possibilities open up in front of you.

You can certainly choose not to apply for membership; that is up to you.

[Chris Saper]

Alexandra,

I completely agree with you. I just finished a 5-day sculpture class. One of the students was 90. Ninety. And this was her first attempt at sculpture. She did a great job, but the overriding aspect of her invlovement was the sheer fulminant joy she took every day in the learning and building process.

As you say, it just depends on what any given individual is seeking.