How much 'negative' space is too much?

[Michele Rushworth]

Here's my two cents on all the various subjects that have come up in this thread:

I think more space around a subject makes it look more like a portrait and less like a snapshot. I also think it's a bit more elegant. I'm tending to want to put more space around my subjects in my current work, too. Purely subjective, of course. Lots of empty space does make for a big canvas or a small head size, things that some of my clients would prefer to avoid, though.

I love cats. That said, lose the cat. At least that's my thinking. With the cat it becomes a double portrait and that means both subjects have to be posed properly, not looking awkward, not looking like they want to be somewhere else, etc. If the cat doesn't look great in the photo you won't be able to make it look great in the painting. It will completely distract from the excellent job you do with your daughter.

I recommend you use a tripod. Almost all the shots are blurry.

I'd suggest that you might want to consider stretching your own canvases. It's not hard. Pre stretched canvases generally are of an inferior quality, and also give you much less flexibility for compositions. Hardly any of my compositions would fit a standard size canvas.

I also highly recommend you get Photoshop, or some less expensive competitor, and a photo printer. Maybe you could ask Santa. There is an absoutely HUGE benefit to being able to size, crop, compose your own reference, in high quality color, whenever you want it. I literally couldn't work without it.

Keep us posted on how this progresses! I look forward to seeing how you work all these issues out.

[Joan Breckwoldt]

Originally Posted by Michele Rushworth

I'm tending to want to put more space around my subjects in my current work, too. Purely subjective, of course. Lots of empty space does make for a big canvas or a small head size, things that some of my clients would prefer to avoid, though.

Hi Michele,

Thank you for your post and all of your excellent suggestions. I think this is such an interesting subject, the idea of negative space around the model, I will be watching your portraits to see how you continue to handle this. I can see how this would be a dilema for your clients though, since not everybody has a home that can handle a huge portrait with lots of space around it and as you said, otherwise the head size may get smaller.

Originally Posted by Michele Rushworth

With the cat it becomes a double portrait . . . .

I have never done a double portrait and I've come to realize that a double portrait isn't just twice as difficult as a single portrait, there is some kind of exponential relationship going on here!

Originally Posted by Michele Rushworth

I recommend you use a tripod. Almost all the shots are blurry. .

That one is already on my Christmas list. Although last night I asked my husband about a tripod I thought we had and I had it in my hands 2 minutes later. It's a little 'travel' type that only does horizontal photos, so I will be getting a new one. But, for today's photo shoot of my daughter, at least I'll have one. Thank you for reinforcing that I do need a tripod.

Originally Posted by Michele Rushworth

I'd suggest that you might want to consider stretching your own canvases. It's not hard. .

Ughh, all that time. I have stretched my own canvas before and I actually enjoyed it. I even sized them with the rabbit glue and then primed them with oil primer. What a process. I did 5 or 6 at a time. I know my painting ability and I need to spend the time painting, one of these days I'll go back to stretching my own canvas. But for now I think that's putting the cart before the horse for me.

Originally Posted by Michele Rushworth

I also highly recommend you get Photoshop, or some less expensive competitor, and a photo printer. Maybe you could ask Santa.

Photoshop. I guess I should make that investment. Santa will have quite a list from me. I was thinking about a new camera too. I just got the Epson R300 printer and I love it. Though I can't figure out the 'tiling' method of printing out something larger than 8" x 10". I think I read in one of your posts that that's what you do.

Whew, that's a lot to think about! I have slept on this . . . for three nights now! . . . and my gut is telling me to keep this simple. Another photo shoot today (with tripod!) and I'll see what that gets me.

thanks again Michele,

Joan

[Joan Breckwoldt]

Okay, here is the update on the portrait of my daughter and cat. I'm going to reshoot using a tripod because the couple of photos that I like best are fuzzy. Yesterday (Thurs.) I had my portrait class and didn't get home until dinner time, too dark to take photos. But, at least I did some painting. Today, Friday, my daughter has a game and won't be home until dark. So, tomorrow is the day for the photo shoot. I find my artificial light set-up works better supplemented with some daylight coming in through the windows. And, tomorrow I'm going to pick the best photo and go with it! This is frustrating, taking an entire week to get a decent photo of my daughter and cat. I really had planned to paint her this week, not spend the whole week picking a photo.

I'm only going to paint my daughter and it's going to be a head and shoulders only. With the holidays approaching I don't want to get in over my head so I'm going to try and paint my daughter, and then my son, before Christmas.

Whew, getting a good reference photo is a lot of work. I know it'll be a lot easier without the cat. And hopefully next time it'll be easier. If I'm ever going to paint non-family members, I need to be able to take a good reference photo without having 5 photo shoots, don't ya think!

I may try her with the cat again after the holidays.

Joan

[Chris Saper]

My apologies for being so late to weigh in here ! (Negative spaces are one of my very favorite topics:0 ) I have little to add to the already excellent suggestions, just a few bits of information to share. Peggy Baumgaertner offers a guideline that there should be at least a "forehead's height" between the frame and the top of the hair. I think that's a useful thing to consider, although certainly the individual artist's choice has to trump everything else.

Visually, our eyes tend to "sink" objects into the bottom of the frame - that's the reason the matted work should add a little bit of width to the bottom edge of the mat, and if I recall from art history, one of the key considerations to the Acropolis design. The larger an object is, the greater the viewing distance becomes, which I think that magnifies the "sink factor". Balancing negative spaces includes things like the amount of room you give for example, below the fingers, to the left of the elbow, etc. Anytime pictorial elements get to close to the frame they start to gather unwanted attention.

It's also essential (and increasingly critical as the painting becomes smaller) to take into account the 3/8" frame rabbet that will cover the canvas borders once framed. I think most of us have had the experience of placing our lovely work work in a frame only to discover that the the head was chopped, or the arm created a tangent with the frame, or any number of things that destroy the composition.

Whew, getting a good reference photo is a lot of work.

So true, and one of the chief reasons for failed paintings. It's worth every minute you invest into getting the best resource you can, even if you don't end up painting it!

And yes, the cat really does mean a double portrait, in that your reference for the cat has to be just as good as your reference for the subject.

[Joan Breckwoldt]

Originally Posted by Chris Saper

Anytime pictorial elements get to close to the frame they start to gather unwanted attention.

Hi Chris,

Thank you for your reply. Thank you for pointing this out, I think I knew this instinctively, but having this worded so well will surely save me time in the future when I'm trying to decide how to crop something.

This is such an interesting subject, I've enjoyed all the comments and learned so much.

Joan

[Joan Breckwoldt]

This weekend I finally got a chance to take some more photos of my very patient daughter with the tripod I dug up.

I spent some time cropping this and have 3 different compositions that I like and I was going to post one of those, but then I thought it might be interesting to post the original uncropped version and just listen to what the knowledgeable people on this forum have to say about where it should be cropped.

If there is one thing I've learned, there is more than one way to skin a cat. (Speaking of cats, our kitty is no longer a part of this project.) I'm learning how there is no one 'right' answer, but many 'right' answers. Though I suppose one could argue there is the one 'best' answer, but that best answer is the one that satisfies the artist (and client).

I look forward to your comments.

Joan

[Joan Breckwoldt]

This is the uncropped version of the photo I'll use for my son, just for anyone who is interested in seing how this ongoing project is going.

I welcome any comments!

Joan