Warm and cool defined

[Michael Fournier]

I won't get into this color thread except to note that as Michael says, much of what is being discussed is semantics. One man's cool is another man's warm. On your question about the warm skin tone, Michael, I would say that what you have described is a very cool flesh tone.

Yes, you could say that, since it is an example of a flesh tone as seen under cool north light. Also it is just such an example that shows that warm and cool are relative to the other colors in the painting. I tend to lean toward cool highlights and warm shadows and the midtones are a mix, depending on the amount of blood in the area, or if it is a receding plane or not.

I will go back to a quote from Nelson Shanks when asked how to mix a flesh tone he replied with: "Do you have 2 years? I will tell you." You just can't cover this topic in a single Forum post. So much of this is subjective, and there are so many variations, that there is no short answer. Sure, you can make simple rules or guidelines, but they will be wrong as many times as they will be correct.

A few Examples:

• Shadows are warm under cool light.
  
  Sure that can be true but it can also be completely wrong many things can affect the shadows, like a blue from another object that is affecting the ambient and reflected light in the room.
  
  Sunlight outdoors is warm and the shadows are cool.
  
  Well, the impressionists sure thought that this one was true but is it always? No not all the time.
  
  Cool colors recede, warm colors come forward.
  
  Again this rule works if your background is cool or gets cooler as it recedes as in a atmospheric landscape. But what if your background was a huge fire and things closer to that fire where very effected by that warm light, but the objects in the foreground were lit buy a cool light source? Well, in this case warm colors would recede, In other words, objects with a greater amount of the background color tend to recede into that background. It does not matter if it is warm or cool.

So can you really paint following rules blindly? No.

Try to paint what you see. The rest it just technique.

[Jean Kelly]

My brother is an applied mathemetician, doing color analysis and standards for Quadgraphics here in Wisconsin. He is the one who uses and develops the computer programs to define color in the printing industry. Even with all his knowledge of the "science" of color, he is amazed by color in ART. He reduces it to mathematical equations and pages of computer language, yet when standing in front of a painting with incredible blues, deep black, luscious skin tones he says, "How did you do that"!

One of the tests he was required to "pass" before being offered the job consisted of being able to see the hues in color samples. Evidently the vast majority of the human race can only see half of the pigments in a particular color sample. (If anyone is interested I can get the actual statistics).

As artists, we are blessed with the ability to experience as much color as our rods and cones will allow us. I am eternally grateful for the gift of being able to see the differences. I'd like to see this thread continued with examples of the wonderful color in art.

Anyone interested in the finite and microscopic analysis of color can e-mail me and I'll refer them to John, he loves to ponder and is quite verbose.

Jean

[Michael Fournier]

Anyone interested in the finite and microscopic analysis of color can e-mail me and I'll refer them to John, he loves to ponder and is quite verbose

The type of microscopic tests I was referring to do not even look at the color of the particles but the molecular structure and size of particles to identify specific pigments. These are also sometimes combined with chemical spectrum analysis. So, if say, a lead white was mixed with a chrome oxide, they would look for those pigments and chemical compounds and try to determine the amounts of each. They also would try and determine the binder or type of oil used, and if there was a varnish applied what type. This is a very scientific process that has more to do with molecular chemistry then color theory. You could even be color blind and do these tests.

Now this is different than a paint chip analysis, where they try to look at the different layers to find the hue and shade that a mix of pigments produced. For the same color hue and shade and value can be made from different pigments. It is important that conservators know the exact pigment used and the exact type of oil or other mediums used to bind those pigments. Also they need only a very small sample (small like the size of a pin point or the point of a dental tool) The microscopes they use are like an electron microscope that can see the molecular structure of a particle.

But even with all these advanced tools, they still have to make educated guesses as to the painting process. These tests have been used to try to determine the authenticity of paintings, and even with all of this, experts still can't always agree. As you might imagine, a painting that has been around for a few hundred years would have plenty of exposure to all kinds of contaminants that could disrupt the findings or cause enough doubt to make them inconclusive.

[Jean Kelly]

Hi Michael, I was gently teasing about my brother. He loves to pontificate. I generally tune him out after about 15 minutes. I'd rather do it than understand his mathematical analysis of pixel formation.

The point is that no amount of scientific study can actually define how artists use color. What remains is very simple. In order to experience we have to do it. Add violet, green, blue, or any other color and see what happens. And there will always be paradoxes. We define warm colors as those most like the warmth of the sun, and cool tones as standing in the shade of a tree. Yet the hottest flame burns a blue- white. And with this I have to stop pontificating and go do it!

Jean

[Linda Ciallelo]

I haven't read every bit of this thread, but I think that no one has brought up the fact that a neutral color, when placed next to a color like red or yellow, will appear to be its opposite.

If you stare at a patch of red, then look quickly to a piece of white paper, you will see the shape of the red patch, but it will be green.

The same thing happens when you are painting red in a face, and then put gray next to it, the gray will appear green. If the face is orange, the gray will appear blue, etc. etc.. Andrew Loomis talks about this in the color section of his book.

For years I tried to put blue and green in portraits, because I can see it there. Then I realized that gray will look just like blue and green, and purple, if you are using red, orange and yellow.

Karin Wells knows this. Black is our blue, our purple and our green.

[Marvin Mattelson]

Linda,

Thanks for not reading the entire thread. I am not being facetious since you have reiterated my original supposition that the illusion of most complexion hue variations is an optical and should be FIRST attempted using neutrals in a painting. However you may in the future want to check in after reviewing the previous twists and turns.

My original purpose was to point out that artists trying to get a grasp on the complexities of painting complexion colors are far better served by taking a simpler approach as opposed to trying to load up their skin tones with lots of color. This can easily result in muddy and garish color. Also I was talking about seeing relationships versus going by formulas.

I feel too much minutia is analyzed and focused on without addressing the big issues that underlay the painting experience, getting unity and form to name two. A three dimensional egg is more valid expression than a flat juxtaposition of features, if you want to tell the truth about a head.

I also mentioned that my original premise was prompted by my recent field trip to the Met and that my observations were based on actual portraits such as Rembrandt's portrait of Herman Doomer. I applauded the portrait of Rembrandt's wife posted by Michele because it clearly demonstrated his use of neutrals versus more chromatic hues similarly to the Herman Doomer painting. However, the neutrals at the Met didn

[Michael Fournier]

Yes, this thread did take some twists and turns but great conclusion Marvin. I think you did make your point and it was a good one. I think I might have misunderstood some of your initial post, but as the discussion went on it became more clear to me. As it turns out, I do not think we are that different in our methods. I may lean a bit more towards a impressionist influence but that doesn't mean I can't appreciate your view. And after all, who is going to argue with Rembrandt

[Marvin Mattelson]

Michael,

I'm glad you came full circle as well. I know you are very sincere and your questions are never self-serving and always come out of a genuine desire to expand yourself.

One of my favorite painters is William McGregor Paxton, a painter who successfully combined Impressionistic color notes and academic values. He achieved incredibly luminous skin tones and exquisite color notes using a rather limited palette.

My goal is to incorporate both sensibilities in my work as well.

[Khaimraj Seepersad]

Linda,

I was going to suggest the Mysterious Fayum Portraits. The colours used were white, earth yellow, earth red and an organic black (which functioned as an imperfect blue), this was the standard for a very long time.

I also wanted to ask, just from how far,were the painters responding to this discussion viewing the faces they were painting. From life?

[Chris Saper]

This thread moved off-track, was edited, and will remain closed for now.