Painting on top of paint . . .

[Richard Budig]

Painting on top of paint is, basically, a no-no, or so I've read from sources as diverse as current art magazines, Harold Speed, Solomon J. Solomon, and others.

The story is that painting over paint makes the new, top layer dull, sullen, etc.

I would like to hear some comments about this. I can think of occasions where I've painted over a previously painted passage with good results, and sometimes, with not so good results.

I suppose this also brings up the question of painting on toned canvas. Many artists, including the "biggies" in the field, tone canvasses. Art history is full of stories of artists who tone quite darkly, and yet their pictures (not ours) are in art history books as examples of how to do it.

I have also read about artists (wasn't Gainsboro one of them) who, as common practice, painted his picture (portrait), but stopped at the flesh, painted a bright, white spot on the canvas, and then painted the face/hands, etc. into this white "underpainting," making the flesh "glow."

Anybody have any thoughts?

[Timothy C. Tyler]

I don't know what exactly you read but what I see here appears very incorrect. Artists paint over paint all the time in many ways.

[Richard Budig]

Here is a quote from Chapter IX of Solomon J. Solomon's book, The practice of Oil Painting, a book on the list of the American Society of Classical Realism

Now, we will imagine that you have neglected to scrape off your paint while the study was wet, and desire to continue with it although it has dried. If the work is only partly dry, and too set to be removed with the palette knife, you had best not continue with that study until it is thoroughly set. It is better to start something else meanwhile.
If, however, it is practically dry, how shall we proceed? First of all, take your "plush mat" and erase some of the dark colour from your shadows and background, right up to and even over the outline, not forgetting to place a thick cardboard immediately behind the canvas, between it and your stretcher. This will give you a firm ground to scrape upon, and will prevent abrasions. Repeated covering of already dark paint will lead to muddiness ; but by erasing somewhat, you will be able to preserve the requisite transparent quality. If, at the same time, the light passages are over-encumbered, use your plush mat so that the scraping undulates across the modelling, from side to side of the study, pressing but slightly on the mat. Any uneven pressure may result in ugly ruts, in which eventuality you had best scrape till the immediately surrounding canvas is altogether bare.

The pertinent sentence is buried in the middle of all this. I suppose it's not a really big biggie, today, since few people try to preserve depth or luminosity in shadow. Perhaps I'm crying wolf, too. Who knows. It's just that painting is such hard business, and I try to find good sources who have "learned" things to say about it, so I read as many of the old guys as I can uncover.

Harold Speed, another favorite of classical realists, also speaks of making dark areas dull and dead by repeated painting of them.

Just a thought.

[Michele Rushworth]

Dark areas do often get dull when painting over them, if insufficient oil is used. If this happens, the technique called "oiling out" (applying a thin layer of linseed oil on the dry "sunken in" paint) does the trick.

[Renee Price]

I agree with Tim. Many artists paint in layers--even on top of layers. I've also heard of some artists adding around 25 layers of paint in order to 'mimic' the translucent quality of flesh. And I also agree with Michele about how to handle dark passages by oiling out. Dark areas should not have multiple layers.

Good luck,
Renee Price

[Timothy C. Tyler]

I'm not sure I'd put much faith in this treatise.

[Leslie Ficcaglia]

I don't know about this suggestion as a general rule, but I often find that I need to cover dark paint with something much lighter before going on to make a change in value for the final brush strokes. I also find that colors have a way of showing through subsequent coats. Recently I used burnt sienna to lay down some of the background for a child's hair which had pretty red highlights, and now I'm struggling to give it the basically brown tones that the references show. Especially in photos the red seems to take over.

I also recall seeing artists discuss the use of contrasting underpaintings to give landscapes the punch they desire. In illustrated demos it does seem to make a significant difference.

[Timothy C. Tyler]

I think you can find better how to books that are more clearly written and make more sense. One can fill a library on; "how to ruin a painting books". There are dozens of good choices out there for good how to paint well books.

[Steven Sweeney]

Before dismissing Solomon (or Speed), some passing (if grudging) attention to the broader context of their remarks would be prudent.

Solomon isn

[Timothy C. Tyler]

I think when one writes a book one should be able to speak clearly or hire an editor. Does that quote read clearly to you? Richard Schmid's book is very easy to understand.