Oil vs. Pastel

Elizabeth Schott · 06-06-2005, 09:13 AM

I was just curious.

What are your thoughts of "official" portraits painted in pastel vs. traditional oils? Is this a big no, no?

If you are well known for pastels it would make sense that this is OK, but what if not?

Michele Rushworth · 06-06-2005, 09:36 AM

I'v never heard of any official portraits in pastels.

Check out Daniel Greene's site. He's certainly "known" for pastels, as well as oils. It doesn't look as if any of his official commissions are done in pastels.

Elizabeth Schott · 06-07-2005, 12:46 AM

Thanks Michelle,

I was just trying to create a bit more dialogue, I think it is interesting how artist like Freud and changed portraiture and how different mediums come into play.

I guess it didn't spark anyone's interest.

Here are few samples I found. The first one is on a black and white photo from the Met in NYC, I am not sure of where the second is from, the Greene is from the Cincinnati Art Museum, it is in the new Cincinnati Wing, since Mr. Greene is from there.

Beth

Jimmie Arroyo · 06-07-2005, 09:02 AM

If I could paint in oils and had an "official" portrait to do, I would chose oils myself. I believe it would be favored because it's more traditional, and the whole "under glass" thing. Most competitions, when they invite mixed media, separate the oils and everything else "under glass".

I think a client not familiar with the properties of oil and pastel, would be disappointed to find out their commission would have to be delivered "under glass", and would most likely want oil. Just my opinion, but I feel most people would agree an official portrait under glass (unless being protected) would look odd.

Molly Sherrick Phifer · 06-07-2005, 11:53 AM

Here is another Daniel Greene portrait in pastel. This one is of William Steinberg, Conductor of the Pittsburg Symphony.

I agree with Jimmy about the under glass issue. Even though pastels can be displayed with non glare glass these days, most folks still shy away from them in settings where they are mounted up high or in hallways where it would be less than optimal viewing a work under glass. I wonder if there is also a tendency to view works under glass as less valuable somehow because people think of prints and photos when they think of works under glass. Not sure if that might be a factor.

Many times when an official portrait is commissioned, it is displayed with others. There is a tendency to go for uniformity of presentation and the fact that so many of these works are already oils makes the choice for oil that much more likely.

Sharon Knettell · 06-07-2005, 06:24 PM

Maurice Quentin de la Tour did many of the official portraits of the French court in the 18th Century, the Age of Enlightenment and Voltaire. As a matter of fact it was the medium of choice then because of it's sparkling qualities and brillant color which made paintings look dull when they were placed side by side. This was such a problem to the portait painters that painted in oil, the pastellists were banned from the official salon.

Here is a large pastel of Mme. Pompadour, 1.775m x 1.310m.

Anthony Emmolo · 06-07-2005, 06:35 PM

"I wonder if there is also a tendency to view works under glass as less valuable somehow because people think of prints and photos when they think of works under glass. Not sure if that might be a factor." Molly

I don't know if it matters here, but in the gallery world an artists works on paper are priced lower than that same artists traditional oils of the same size.

Anthony

Molly Sherrick Phifer · 06-07-2005, 09:00 PM

"an artists works on paper are priced lower than that same artists traditional oils of the same size" - Anthony

I have long wondered if that tendency had more to do with the perception of paper as inherently delicate, or if the weakness is perceived as belonging to the medium itself. In fact, there are "papers" for pastel available (e.g. Wallis) that have an archival rating of 300 - 500 years. These same papers can be scrubbed and are water resistant. Then there are supports for pastel that are not paper at all. Perhaps Sharon can tell us about the archivability of her panels? Panels are becoming quite popular for both wet and dry media.

Or perhaps it's just a matter of oils being perceived as more valuable. Period.

Anthony Emmolo · 06-07-2005, 09:16 PM

Molly ,

My understanding is that you are correct. It is due to the fact that pastel and paper are viewed as more delicate. For your reference I got the information out of a book, not from my own experiences. However, I did sell pastel nudes in one of my galleries, and had to sell them at a lower price.

It is good to know the reasons so that we can find the opposites when negotiating. For all of us it is good to remember that by not beginning the work before the first installment of the commission is paid is not only beneficial in protecting us from beginning a work that doesn't go into contract. The other purpose of waiting is because once we begin the painting, we lose valuable negotiating leverage. A good negotiator on the other side will play on the fact that we wouldn't want to have "wasted" the time already spent.

In short, the price is negotiable as long as the client can be brought to understand that a pastel portrait is as desirable as an oil.
Anthony