Lovely Alizarin, what are you using for a replacement?

[Sharon Knettell]

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[Allan Rahbek]

Sharon,
I use W& N 's Permanent Crimson Lake. Hope that it's permanent.
It has the "Permanence: A" mark

[Allan Rahbek]

Sharon,
I don't think that I need any stronger wine red. It mixes beautifully with Permanent Rose (W&N) and Ultramarine Blue to the cold side and with Cad. Red Light , Vermilion Light and Transparent Oxide Red to the warm side.

[Claudemir Bonfim]

Yes, Alizarin fades away leaving a brown remembrance of what the painter tried to depict.

I've tried all sorts of similar paints, but I wasn't satisfied. Faber Castell produced one deep red in the past which gave me a very similar result, but I don't know why they stopped the production (at least in Brazil). Now I'm still looking for something, but I keep on using the same one Allan does.

[Julie Deane]

I just did an online search, looking at major suppliers and haven't yet found W & N's "Permanent Crimson Lake" yet in the U.S. However, I have found "Permanent Alizarin Crimson Hue. These are different colors, correct? Any idea where to locate the former?

[Richard Bingham]

Alizarine colors (there's quite a range of caste and intensity from rosy to brownish) hit artist's palettes in the 1870's. An organic, synthetic pigment derived from coal tar (PR 83 - anthraquinone) it is in a class with pigments and dyes developed in the 1860's which made available the intensely brilliant red, purple, blue and orange fabrics which thrilled the eye, purportedly launching the Impressionists' "revolution" . . .

PR-83 Anthraquinone is classed by ASTM as "III" for lightfastness. Not great, but not fugitive, either. Depending on the date of the Sargent, it's possible early varieties were not as reliable as the pigment became later on.

What are we painting with? It depends on who's lying to you. Many of the colors in the range of intense deep reds are now labelled with "romantic" names rather than being identified as a specific pigment material. Labelling with "hue" in the description is not the same pigment stuff associated with the name, (e.g., "Terre Verte Hue") and nowadays the term "lake" on a color label is most probably a misnomer. In the past, "lake" colors comprised a group of mostly fugitive oil colors derived from dying clays and other inert substances with fluid dyes unavailable in dry pigment form which could be mulled in oil. The term "lake" is a corruption of "lacca", wherein seed lac was dyed to produce a pigment solid. (e.g."Madder Lake", the fugitive precursor of Alizarine Crimson, which colorant was extracted from madder root, to dye clay).

These days, there are a number of high-chroma synthetic resin pigments available such as the pyrol reds. (e.g. -Diketo Pyrole-Pyrole) They provide a wide variety of transparent reds analogous to "alizarine" ranging from very warm to very cool. Are these more permanent than Alizarine? Very likely, as this is the pigment chemistry responsible for the abundant number of red cars on the road the last 20 years. Prior to their advent, deep reds and maroons were notoriously fragile for auto finishes as well as expensive. We'll have to wait around another 130 years or so to find out for sure, though.

Oh! Yeah! You want to know what I"m using! I've been quite pleased with Robert Doak's Pyrol Ruby.

[Allan Rahbek]

Richard,
do you say that we can not trust the word "permanence: A" from W&N? The specific tube of Permanent Crimson Lake that I'v got is a "student Quality" named "Winton Colour" but it is a W&N product saying Permanent.
The content of pigment is "Anthraquinoid, Ultramarine".

[Richard Bingham]

Hi Allan.

Permanence is always relative. Considerations for "what's best" are subjective to the individual painter's situation. It wouldn't do to construct a temporary job shack on a construction site out of dry-set granite blocks.

The prime criterion for "student grade" paint is low cost. The quality of all components in student grades is adjusted to be economical. Fillers and extenders are cheaper than pigment stuffs. Not all pigments of similar color cost the same, nor do they perform the same. Since reasonable folks don't expect student work to endure for posterity to "enjoy" (?!?) permanence at that tier is the last consideration. Professional painters should use the highest quality paint and materials available to them. As they have an obligation to deliver quality to their clients, they should not use student colors.

"Permanence A" is no doubt W&N's in-house system of quality standards. Where artists' oil colors are concerned, ASTM standards are subjective enough without having to deal with arbitrary standards set by individual manufacturers.

The W&N color you have, "Permanent Crimson Lake" is a convenience mix of anthraquinoid (red) and ultramarine (blue). It is not a "lake". No doubt the anthraquinoid red employed is too "hot" to approximate what most folks expect in alizarine crimson, so it's been "cooled down" with the admixture of ultramarine.

[Allan Rahbek]

Originally Posted by Richard Bingham

PR-83 Anthraquinone is classed by ASTM as "III" for lightfastness. Not great, but not fugitive, either.

Richard,
My W&n Permanent Crimson Lake also says "Light fastness: 1"
Anthraquinonoid (PR177), Ultramarine(PB29)

[Cindy Procious]

Richard, what I want to know is, do you have all that data in reference materials at the ready, or is it, instead, sitting in the recesses of your brain, ready and waiting to fall off your fingers onto your computer at any moment?