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Scott Bartner 07-28-2003 03:57 PM

Old Burnt Sienna
 
I am looking for an old tube of Winsor & Newton Burnt Sienna 103 SL Series 1, or Grumbacher Burnt Sienna PO23. These paints were made from calcined natural iron oxide. The W&N product was available as late as 1991.

I use burnt sienna as the basis for my flesh tone glaze. The synthetic iron oxide currently available does not have the same color or glazing characteristics.

If you have an old (partially used) tube you would consider selling, please contact me via e-mail.

Thank you,
Scott Bartner

Richard Budig 01-21-2004 10:32 PM

No, but . . .
 
No, I'm sorry, I don't have either of these, although I'm sure I've used them in the past. I go through lots of burnt sienna, also.

Have you ever used Rembrandt's Transparent Oxide Red? It's a lovely version of BS, but richer, a bit more red, and very transparent. A little pricey for me (I'm retired, living on cat food and a fixed income -- just kidding). It's around $9.50 a tube, but it's great stuff.

Also, I'm toying with the idea of trying Permalba's Alizarin Orange Permanent. However, I'm basing my idea of using it on a Permalba color chart that comes with their big tube of white, which I use regularly.

If you, or anyone, knows anything about the Permalba color, I'd like to hear about it. I love Rembrandt's TRO, but I go through it so fast.

Michele Rushworth 01-22-2004 12:07 AM

I seem to recall that Old Holland's Deep Ochre is natural calcined iron oxide, but I'm not sure. I don't happen to have a tube of it right now to check, though.

Scott Bartner 01-23-2004 11:59 AM

Michele, the Old Holland product is natural calcined iron oxide, but it's just not the same as the old W&N product.

Richard, I'll have to try the Rembrandt red oxide you mentioned.

Cat food? That's one up on me. Ever tried birdseed flamb

Richard Budig 01-23-2004 02:26 PM

Bee's Knees . . .
 
Scott:

Birdseed flambe, no, but bee's knees . . . delicious.

Seriously, I think you'll like transparent oxid red from Remb.

Dick

Michele Rushworth 01-23-2004 03:28 PM

Gamblin's Burnt Sienna is calcined natural iron oxide. It might be easier to find a substitute than the Winsor Newton, if they stopped making it 13 years ago.

Linda Brandon 01-23-2004 09:10 PM

Scott, your request sent me to my old paint box. I actually did find a twisted up old tube of W&N Burnt Sienna, but in the words of George Thorogood, it was b-b-b-bad to the bone.

How about a big tube of Utrecht Burnt Sienna? The 'statement of contents' on the back says 'calcined raw sienna'.

As for me, I like Gamblin's Transparent Oxide Red.

Scott Bartner 01-24-2004 10:08 AM

Linda, you must resuscitate that burnt sienna for me. Go to a faith healer, go to Yuri Geller, but get me that burnt sienna. My life depends on it.

George Thorogood you say? Does he play in the Pittsburg Symphony string section?

Linda Brandon 01-24-2004 08:34 PM

Dearest Scott, you must learn to be FLEXIBLE. I hate to be the one to nail the lid on your coffin.

To paraphrase Woody Allen, not only is the paint bad, to make matters worse, there is so little of it left. That tube is just plain DOA.

Richard Budig 01-26-2004 07:31 PM

I have two tubes . . .
 
Finally got around to looking through my supply chests and find I have at least two tubes of Grumbacher burnt sienna.

One is Pre Tested, and the other is Academy (student stuff), both are made of calcined natural iron oxide. The Pre Tested tube is the P023 of which you speak.

I can't believe it's that hard to find. I order this stuff from Dixie Art (they have a web site) all the time.

Dianne Gardner 02-10-2004 10:16 AM

I have about a third of a tube of pre-tested Grumbacher's Burnt Sienna PO23 if you want it.

Dianne

Garth Herrick 04-08-2004 12:49 AM

Old Burnt Sienna P023
 
3 Attachment(s)
Scott,

Hi, I'm relatively new to the forum, so I missed the last round of posts in January. I hope you have found some real burnt sienna, but in case you are still searching, here is some rare earth I just dug up:

I found four tube remnants of Grumbacher's P023, ranging in age from circa 1960 to 1977. The newest one dates from my first ever purchase of oils. The older ones belonged to the man who employed me to sculpt Leonardo da Vinci's Horse a while back.

You made me curious so I made a test chart to compare all my tubes of burnt sienna. There is a difference between W+N synthetic and Grumbacher P023. However, being a natural product, all four tubes of P023 are subtly different from each other as well. The newest one has a lighter body color, but can make a similar tint and glaze as the others. The modern W+N product is more yellow in hue, but I guess you know that.

The other tubes I compared, are: A forty+ year old tube from Permanant Pigments (very close to Grumbacher P023, but slightly redder), Old Holland (natural calcined sienna, but clearly a different pigment source), and Pebeo Fragonard, which I understand is no longer available, but is very much a different standard for burnt sienna, because it is made from burnt umber (go figure)!

With each swatch, I added some Blockx Mixte White (flake and zinc) to test the tint hues.

I didn't realize there were so many different standards for Burnt Sienna! Here are some pictures of test swatches. I hope this helps.

Scott Bartner 04-08-2004 08:04 AM

Dear Garth:

I'm very grateful you took the time and energy to research the burnt sienna problem for me. For the last several years I had been struggling to refine my technique, trying to determine what mixture of paints, when applied to a monochrome underpainting, produced the most believable flesh tone--using my dwindling supply of W&N burnt sienna 103 as a base.

It never occurred to me that after the W&N was gone, other brands would be so vastly different. The W&N synthetic burnt sienna was a joke; it should be called "Great Pumpkin Orange." I tried versions from Blockx, Old Holland, Rembrandt, Talens, Van Gogh, Zecchi, old Grumbacher PO23 tubes (my father cajoled from his medical illustration students), Williamsburg, Sinopia pigment to name a few. Therefore I was rather skeptical of finding something comparable to the old W&N 103. You see it's not just the color, but the way it behaves when applied thinly. Then I discovered the Gamblin product was identical to the W&N 103 in every respect. I've since purchased a life time supply and had it smuggled here using my usual courier. Thanks though for your help.

Allan Rahbek 04-08-2004 08:23 AM

Hi Garth, sparring partner.

I notice that the shadows of the tubes seem bluish and the light pink / yellowish, which means that you have used a warm light. This will make the Burnt Sienna look more warm than out in the real life.
Just theory, no problem!

I used to paint watercolors for many years, which is only glazes. I favored the Siennas and especially from W&N, because they were so well ground and clean, no milk in that soup !

They do now make the Sienna in artificial way but with the natural ingredients. And I am suspicious enough to think that they mix the color to a certain standard of color, to be optimal in use.

Allan

David Kassan 04-08-2004 11:07 AM

Burnt sienna
 
1 Attachment(s)
It ain't pretty and the cap is on there for good, but it's almost full and it's yours if you want it. I collect old paints because they are better. If anyone can find me Mummy Brown. let me know. It's really old from the late 19th century,




Garth Herrick 04-08-2004 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allan Rahbek
Hi Garth, sparring partner.

I notice that the shadows of the tubes seem bluish and the light pink / yellowish, which means that you have used a warm light. This will make the Burnt Sienna look more warm than out in the real life.
Just theory, no problem!

Allan

Allan,

You are quite right and very observant. My very fine professional flash decided to subordinate it output against the extremely glaring 500 watt halogen that was already illuminating the situation. However, I did a more careful Photoshop Levels white balance on the two pictures of the colot tests. They seem corrected to me.

Thanks!

Garth Herrick 04-08-2004 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Bartner
Dear Garth:

I'm very grateful you took the time and energy to research the burnt sienna problem for me. For the last several years I had been struggling to refine my technique, trying to determine what mixture of paints, when applied to a monochrome underpainting, produced the most believable flesh tone--using my dwindling supply of W&N burnt sienna 103 as a base.

It never occurred to me that after the W&N was gone, other brands would be so vastly different. The W&N synthetic burnt sienna was a joke; it should be called "Great Pumpkin Orange." I tried versions from Blockx, Old Holland, Rembrandt, Talens, Van Gogh, Zecchi, old Grumbacher PO23 tubes (my father cajoled from his medical illustration students), Williamsburg, Sinopia pigment to name a few. Therefore I was rather skeptical of finding something comparable to the old W&N 103. You see it's not just the color, but the way it behaves when applied thinly. Then I discovered the Gamblin product was identical to the W&N 103 in every respect. I've since purchased a life time supply and had it smuggled here using my usual courier. Thanks though for your help.

Oh, Scott,

You are most welcome. I have learned much. Perhaps this will lead in this forum, to more critical comparisons and discussions about the merits of various pigments and brands, and how they may be best employed. I have inherited about three hundred antique tubes, and only four of them were burnt sienna! Several forty-five year old W+N tubes are on my palette now, but I am assuming these colors are still the same today.

I am glad the Gamblin product matches your needs. I will put my old siennas to use.

Thanks!

Garth Herrick 04-08-2004 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Kassan
It ain't pretty and the cap is on there for good, but its almost full and it's yours if you want it. I collect old paints cause they are better. If anyone can find me Mummy Brown. let me know. its really old from the late 19th century,




Dave,

If you ever come accross some Mummy Brown, give us a report! That should be as rare as a passenger pigeon.

Heidi Maiers 08-13-2014 03:58 PM

Windsor Newton paints
 
I know this post is old, but if still interested, I have loads of old Windsor newton paints I'm trying to sell. of 170 tubes, probably 1/3 are W/N. Check out my post in the items for sale section. All still very soft. If looking for particular colors, I'm sure I have it.

Heidi Maiers 08-13-2014 04:23 PM

Winsor Newton inventory
 
I just checked. Only have 36 tubes of W/N paints. All 40ml size of the following colors. Almost all nearly full and all are still soft.

Cadmium orange 2 tubes
Cadmium lemon 2 tubes
Cadmium yellow pale 2 tubes
Naples yellow
Yellow ochre 2 tubes
Cadmium red
Cadmium red light
Light red 2 tubes
Sap green 3 tubes
Burnt umber 3 tubes
Raw umber 2 tubes
Burnt sienna 2 tubes
Windsor emerald
Windsor green
Windsor blue
Cobalt blue
Antwerp blue
Prussian blue
Flesh tint
Permanent rose
Viridian
Ultramarine violet
Ivory black
Indigo
Paynes gray


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