Next portrait
 

This is my next portrait. I would like to leave the chair out, have the background as a soft garden scene. What about the foreground? Should I include something on the left of the figure and something on the right, to achieve a triangle? Please advise. Any suggestions will be welcomed.

Thanks,
Alicia

When you say you want to add a garden scene "and something on the left and right", I wonder. I think other "somethings" could distract from the figure, but there is an even more serious risk.

I know some artists on this forum are successful at adding background and other items that are not in the original source material, but unless you are very accomplished, I wouldn't recommend it. Getting the lighting and angle right may be just about impossible.

It seems like her skirt is lifted too much in front. It might be difficult to "re-arrange" the fabric to cover her legs a bit more and still be able to get the folds right.

Also, does the client like the pouty expression?

This child being only 15 months just would not sit still. I will post another picture that I am considering. The mother did like the pouty expression, she said she often looks that way. I tried to talk them into waiting until she was older, but to no avail. There are some other pics with the woods in the background that I could substitute. When I get a chance I will post the other picture. Maybe I should do another photo shoot? Thanks for the comments.

Alicia

For some goofy reason, I like this photo...but not quite well enough to paint it. Sadly, I'm sure that this child would someday be teased and embarassed by that expression.

You lucked out shooting this outdoors! You had enough "white dress" to act as a reflector so your shadows wouldn't be harsh. I suppose the question would be, would you have enough light/shadow information in the dress to paint it convincingly. By the way, that dress and hairbow could make the painting - nice choices! (Even that hair would be interesting to paint...)

The part of the picture that does not work is that the "tucked under" leg does not "explain itself" (i.e., it really does not look like a leg). You could overcome this by putting it in shadow.

In general, in order to get more colors and interesting shapes into a painting, you can add colored bows/ornaments to the dress and hair. You can include a hat in the background with bows, flowers and/or ribbons too.

When you are photographing a small child on the ground, you need to be low enough so that you aren't shooting down on top of their head and losing part of the face. I like to aim my lens at slightly above their eye level...and that means crawling around on the ground too (ugh), unless you elevate the child.

Let's see your other photograph before you plan another photo shoot.

Attention please!
 

I hold a kazoo in my mouth when I photograph kids or animals.

When I want their attention I'll toot the theme of a kids song like Sesame Street.

It works every time.

;) Thanks Marvin. Now all I have to do is find a Kazoo!

Alicia

An interesting thing happens when we view a scene, either through a view finder, in a photograph, or by holding up our fingers to box off a section of a setting. Some, like Albert Handell, write about intuitive composition. Ivan Kramskoi said that composition cannot be taught, at least until an artist has had the experience of forming his own compositions.

When you are looking at a scene, or at your photo references, often you are struck by one pose, expression, and layout that stands out. There is an interplay of light and shadow, value, rhythm and form that causes a quickening, an excitement. Something that makes you think "Yes, I want to paint that..."

All too often at this point, you start to fiddle about with the composition, eliminating some elements and adding others. Making the background darker, the hair lighter. All too often, you end up changing that which caught your eye and quickened your heart, making the painting less than it was before you began changing it.

I believe in intuitive composition. I believe in an artist's innate ability to see and be attracted to balance and rhythm. You don't have to be trained to see a cluster of shapes and say, "That looks interesting." Later on, with experience, an artist can begin to manipulate a composition, but initially, I think you must trust your eye, your instincts, your gut feeling, to identify a composition that works intuitively.

What this means, in the case of the little girl with the chair, is that there is something about the compositional elements of that photograph that attracted you. Was it just her face? Her pose? Or was the attraction in the entire piece as a whole?

As my friend Johanna would say, I quite like the chair. Compositionally, the broken pattern of the chair lightens and lifts the mass of the seated girl. The girl is grounded, lower in the foreground than the chair, and has a very interesting perspective. The base of the chair seat is the entry point into the painting. Her pointed foot in close enough to the body, and far away enough from the right border to keep you from leaving the painting. You don't need to artificially make a "triangle composition," the little girl is already a triangle.

I try to keep the composition as clean as possible. I ask myself , "Is there anything that could be added to make the painting better? Is there anything I could take away without it's being missed?"

More toys or a more complicated background would add nothing to the painting, but I would sorely miss that chair.

Peggy

I agree with Peggy about that chair...it certainly adds to the composition!

Underneath all great painting is beautiful abstraction.

However, the chair would need to be redrawn/reworked as the photo distorts it. Dang.

Thanks Peggy and Karin,

Alicia,

The head, shoulder/dress and arm/hand seem to present great opportunities. Whatever composition you end up with I would recommend changing the boxy end of the dress on the lower right. Most of all, however, be careful with the leg. On my screen you cannot see any reference in the dress to suggest a knee and the leg tends to look as though in grew from her stomach.

I could see some possibilities with the chair but I wouldn't have the courage to attempt such a large shape along with it's competing white shades.

And make absolutely sure they really like and will live with the pout. It could be one of those decisions that later contribute to the "something is not quite right" question.

Good Luck

Thanks Jim, I am going to do another photo shoot. She really is a beautiful child and the parents are so anxious to have a portrait they are willing to go with the pout, but it disturbs me. Each time I photograph children I learn a little more. This time, I will only have the mother present and not the aunt and grandmother. Too much competition for her attention.

Alicia

2nd Photo Shoot
 

Thanks to all of you who responded. I retook the pictures utilizing the tips and got really great pics. I couldn't find a kazoo, but the party horn worked great, (the cookies didn't hurt either). I also brought along some stuffed animals.

Almost as an afterthought, the Mom wanted to shoot some in the child's room. As it turned out, the light was perfect, she was happy and in her enviornment and I got some wonderful shots. There are about five of them with her looking at a book, very sweet, but in the second pic I post, you'll see that great smile. It will be hard to pick one, but better that than use a picture you're not really happy about.

Thanks to all for the great tips. I also received the book "Professional Secrets for Photographing Children" haven't read it yet. I'd like to know which of the two pics is perferred.

Thanks,
Alicia

Administrator's Note: Click on book title to see it at Amazon.com.

Here's the other
 

I love the smile here.

Here's the other one
 

An excellent photo... I would crop it on the bottom just above the feet and on the top in the middle of the toys on the top shelf. The way that I view it is that the toys on the shelf stop the eye from going out of the photo there, the white of the door on the right serves as a stop and leads to her left arm which directs the eyes back to the face, the minimal portion of the table leg identifies the table top which leads the eye back to the subject. I think that it would make an excellent portrait, far better than the one with the pout.

2nd photo shoot
 

Without a doubt, the one with the smile in her room at the table. It has a lot of interest and movement. This one, although a good photo, is rather blah.

Of concern...that the arm, hand, and leg position at the table makes her look like a posable doll. I love her "look" in all the photos, she is very photogenic, beautiful coloring, wonderful expression. Her mother is right in wanting her to be painted as she is now, she is bewitching and brilliant. It is unfortunate about the pose, because I really like her face in the indoor photo.

Peggy

Another choice
 

Thanks Tom and Peggy,

I had the same concern about the arms and legs, she does look like a posable doll and yes Peggy she is bewitching. Rather than crop the other as Tom suggested, I rather like this one too.

Thanks,
Alicia

I agree with Tom. I think the best of all the poses so far, would be cropping her above the feet in the other indoor photo.

Peggy

Thanks for the advice. I will crop her just above the feet as Tom suggested.
Alicia

More suggestions
 

If you were painting a portrait from life you would adjust certain aspects of the pose as you worked on them, ie. the position of a hand. Unfortunately you don

Photo Combo
 

Dear Marvin,

I know what you are trying to say, I have combined elements before from different photos. I do understand anatomy very well. I have worked as a surgical assistant for over 30 years and the human body both inside and out is commom knowledge to me. I am working part time now for a plastic and reconstructive group of surgeons. We put faces back together after they have gone through windshields or have been smashed by steering wheels. Sounds gruesome I know, but I have seen some miraculous reconstructions.

Drawing I believe is basic to good art and have also repositioned arms etc. to make the pose work. I appreciate your work on Photoshop and do agree the elements from the two poses look much better. I love the way she is holding the book and her smile is perfect. Unfortunately, the mother (who had the last word on the portrait) just loved the photo of her standing in front of the hydrangeas and chose that one for a portrait. The mother likes her little pensive look and remarked that that is how she looks most of the time, rather like she is thinking about something.

I realize that we as portrait artists not only strive to paint a beautiful work of art, but must also please the customer commissioning the work. My gentle persuasion didn't work, she kept going back to the same photo. It's not bad, but I agree it is rather blah compared to some of the rest. I also have similar shots of her in front of the flowers smiling, but no go.

Thanks for your insight, I do appreciate the experience of all who replied. The years of experience and talent of the moderators and correspondents is truly invaluable to me and others like me striving to reach our goals.

Thanks,
Alicia

For future reference
 

I certainly appreciate the "please the client" dilemma. I find what works for me is getting a good sense of what the client wants. This is a knack I've cultivated during my previous career in illustration. As a result I was required to make corrections quite infrequently, a rarity indeed.

As a portrait artist I'm very reluctant to show all my photos to the client. I am much better qualified to make the best choices. After all isn't this why the hired me? Therefore I make the best, in my opinion, choices based on my sense of what the client wants and show them a restricted selection of photos. I will also show photoshoped composites because most people need to see what things look like.

If the client would ever demand to see all the photos (it's never happened), or wants a photo that I think is not good, I will explain that this is a painting, not a snapshot, and some things just will not fly in a painted portrait.

If we're at an impasse I will suggest perhaps an additional photo shoot and if push came to shove I might even bail out. For me to work on a losing proposition for six weeks would be like being in ****.

This is all hypothetical, as I said, I have found my clients to be very accommodating to my quest for perfection and in the end a great painting makes everyone, artist and client, happy.

Greetings to all, have just returned from an 18 day college tour of New England.

Regarding the above discussion... In a previous life I was a custom home builder. Large expensive homes for people with equally large opinions and egos. It was a hazardous job for many reasons and has amazing similarities to the process of creating a commissioned portrait. When I reflect on those times when I was in the most trouble it was because I had allowed the client to control the process. I became either to timid or just exhausted in the face of their will. The client does not understand all that lies before you and they will not own any responsibility for the final deficiencies, nor should they.

better
 

You are right, I am wimping out. Will talk w/mother again. This is a better composition although not as nice as the one I like inside her room. I would rather paint this than the other standing photo.

Because I am just beginning my career as a portrait painter, I feel that I may be bowing to the customer a little too much. Mike is also right in relating that to his former career. I would never let a patient tell me how to suture. I can relate to that. Thanks Mike.

Alicia

I'd go for this one. Be sure to rotate the figure in order to square it up with the canvas....the most obvious way is to use the chair leg (see below).

You have a lot of distortion in your shots. It will probably be worth your while to take your camera to a good photography store and get some advice on how to eliminate or at least minimize this problem.

Marvin Mattleson's advice here is verrrrry important and bears repeating: Your background is so distorted that you need to eliminate it. You might go back and reshoot parts of her room or some of her toys separately if you wish to include them.

:thumbsdow This is definitely NOT a good composition.

Also note that your camera lens was too far above the child when you clicked the shutter...if you're going to photograph a short kid on the ground, you need to get down there with 'em so that you can shoot at just above their eye level.

Frustrated
 

Well, it seems I can't get anything right. I can't shoot the pictures, I can't find a good composition and I can't paint the picture I want to. Karin, the distortion is coming I think from the computer. The shots do not look like that in "real time".
Alicia

Tis a vexing thing that we attempt. When I decided to paint portraits seriously I went through a very frustrating period and it had everything to do with source material. At some point it just snapped for me that if I was going to paint from photo's (and I was) then I had to creat better photo's. So I set out on a mission. I began to photograph anyone and everyone. I may have caused permenent damage to my daughter. I didn't paint much for a good while. I made friends with the guys at the camera shop and other people who new good photographs.

Even if you paint without photos, you must ultimately make the same decisions regarding composition. To me the camera is a wonderful teacher. Every photo you take is a lesson in composition. I say, every photo you take is a lesson in composition. And it's immediate and it's cheap. And for me it is all about composition. I would have my learned friends critique my efforts and slowly you begin to get to the nub of it. Every professional portrait photographer knows the subject of composition. They bring it to their logical conclusion. We want to take it to that most difficult conclusion... a painting. Being completely self taught, I didn't know how else to approach it. It just seemed to be a reduction of logic.

I have brought myself to the point where I can create pretty good reference photos. I now need to catch up on my ability to translate them into a painting. It seems that things must go there natural course, winter before spring then summer and blah, blah, blah.

Just one more thing. Coming from a business environment ie: computer analyst, commodity broker, business owner it has been a difficult transition for me in regards to criticism. Maybe the process of going to art school has as a by-product lessons in taking criticism. Coming from being the boss doesn't. You seem to be a very good sport having passed through this project in such a public manner.

This forum is a god send, especially for usuns who are not yet gifted.

Alicia,

I'm wanted in class, so I will have to make this succinct. Any one of those photographs would make a fine portrait. The color is good, the subject is photogenic, the light to shadow ratio is perfect, the distortion is manageable. When I saw the first photo you posted, I immediately contacted a few of my friends and told them I was dying to paint that photo. The key to the great portrait is not the "perfect" photograph to copy, it is using the photographs as reference material. The better the reference material the easier it is to paint, but it does not necessarily make the painting a better painting.

You have great stuff to work with. We are all Monday morning quarterbacking. Some like one sort of composition, some like another, like ice cream flavors. Do not question your eye. Those photo are wonderful. Maybe the most sage advice I could give you at this point in time is pick your favorite and paint it! I haven't seen a stinker in the bunch, just some photos I like better than others.

Peggy

Oops...
 

I am so sorry I contributed to this...I promise that you will never recieve another word of criticism from me. And by all means, paint whatever "sings" to you. Painting is supposed to be fun and everyone should paint exactly what they wish to. :)

Hi Alicia,

I've been following this thread with interest, as photography is one of my downfalls.

Although the group here certainly had a lot of technically good advice, I for one felt terribly relieved when I read Peggy's post. I thought the second group of photos you did had a lot of potential! I am looking forward to seeing your completed painting. I have a hunch it's going to be a wow!

Dear Karin,

I was not upset with YOUR criticism. Rather I think I was just frustrated with myself. It is difficult to convey in printed form the inflections intended. I value your judgement and know that you spend a considerable amount of time on this website trying to help those of us who are climbing up the mountain, clinging on by what sometimes feels like a very slippery rope.

This ain't easy stuff, at least not for me, yet. I believe it was Edgar Degas who said "painting is easy when you don't know what you are doing and very hard when you do". I don't know about the other portrait painters out there, but I'm harder on myself than anyone else could ever be. I think we are a tenacious breed as a whole, otherwise we would just give up.

I value your contributions and when I can't take the heat, I'll get out of the kitchen.

So please don't be sorry you contributed. Painting for me is not always fun, sometimes it is and other times I just want to start over.

Alicia

Dear Mike,

Funny about your daughter! I use my dog a lot, she must say oh no she's got that thing again. I could wallpaper a small bathroom with pictures of her, but she doesn't complain. Good thing I buy my film wholesale.

I know the forum is a godsend, but it's kinda like hanging your laundry out in Times Square when ABC is there filming a live segment! Thanks for the hindsight.

Alicia

Peggy,

My immediate response when reading your post was relief. If technology was advanced enough, I would have reached into the monitor to give you a hug. I was starting to feel like a yo-yo.

I am sure that any of the Pro's out there like you, and Karin could take any of the photo's and work your magic on it. I'll just have to learn to trust myself and improve my eye.

Thanks for the sage advice and the encouragement when it was sorely needed.

Alicia

Marta,

Thanks Marta for your support. Onward and tallyho.

Alicia