O
 

I have noticed that over the last months, participation in the forum has dwindled and I find this phenomena rather sad. As I read the reasons given by visitors why they are not signing up and the reasons given by the moderators why they refuse to comment, it leaves me wondering what has happened to this once bustling, friendly place where artists exchanged information and learned from each other.

Maybe it is time we find a common ground of appreciation and gratitude for knowledge offered and an understanding and tolerance for individualism, different ways of expression and different speeds of learning. After all, is it not fun to see how even portraiture has evolved into different styles? Exchange and change are factors that make art an evolving entity necessary to avoid a static existence!

I hope I don't have to start looking for the 'Salon des Refus

Enzie, this "dwindling" isn't something unique to this forum. For many years, I noticed heavy traffic on a few of the fora where I liked to read. During this period, I made a number of "online" acquaintances, availed myself of a wider range of materials sources, and traded "blows" with some good and knowledgeable folks on the subjects of aesthetics, materials, methods of working, market conditions, and approaches to painting, and it was interesting and worthwhile.

I'm now far less likely to "leap into the breach", because participating on internet fora has become something of a "been there, done that, bought the tee-shirt" sort of thing for me. I think we'll eventually cycle out of the doldrums though, and interesting, vital correspondence will return to these and other boards.

Hi Richard,

What does "doldrums" mean? I am not familiar with that term. You do make a good point about "having been there and done that" and I agree that is also a contributing cause.

Steven brought up a great point under Visitors Polls:

1. Who would determine who should be the qualified member to critique?
2. Would there be an open voting for your 1st, 2nd and 3rd choice in a poll format?
3. Could one ask to be the apprentice to a given person?
4. Maybe there should be two critiquers for every new post, maybe one from the Seasoned Pro section and one from the Pro section
5. Should critiquers be a different person than moderators? (asked, simply because of work overload)


I find when too many people critique, especially if they work in a different style, it can become rather confusing, especially if you are just starting out.

Enzie, this doesn't address the "bigger issues," but as to who is entitled to critique, any member is free to offer his or her observations. Cynthia does have a notice that critiques might be coming from relative beginners as well as long-time practitioners. It's a bit of a "caveat emptor" -- Buyer Beware -- situation. We all have to take critiques for what they are, an opinion, more or less informed. Some opinions are worth more than others. Some members are inextricably glued to a practice or philosophy and will endure no others in their presence and will take up arms reflexively against heathen-horde schools of thought.

Sometimes the long-time practitioner is the one who says something that I don't agree with! I've often written that I don't often critique on composition, because my personal preference is for a rather nontraditional, slightly unbalanced composition. I think, though, that it would be a disservice for me to insist that anyone else adhere to my preference. In such an instance, a relative beginner's observations may well trump mine.

Again, the artist whose work is being considered has to accept the critique in a professional manner. Leaping into the path of perceived darts and arrows isn't productive.

When I broached the matter of an apprenticeship approach, I was intending to speak more to an attitude rather than a program. The fact is, mentors are few and far between in any pursuit. Most of us have to wing it.

I think the role of moderator was never intended to be one of responsibility for instruction and critique. That happened rather by default and, dare I suggest, generosity in wanting to get the Forum off to a sound start.

This can't be a communal effort without participation by the community. It's too often like a barn raising at which only 12 of the promised 56 workers showed up.

But if the barn isn't a piece of art, about 44, at least, will make notes and let the 12 know of their blueprint for changes.

The 12 are becoming weary.

Steven, that was a perfect analogy.

Some things that make it really wearing for "The 12":

1. Answering the same basic questions repeatedly (e.g. - "can I thin my paint with gasoline? I don't like the smell of turpentine.") Doesn't this site have a search function?
2. Queries from people who want neither information nor instruction, who are only seeking affirmation for what they are already doing.
3.Gainsaying by "other experts" who believe there is only One True Way to paint, and they own it, and any deviation from methods they espouse is intolerable.

Richard you took the words right out of my mouth (1,2,3). Thank you!

I am of the opinion that a starving/striving artist are the same person and deserve the same attention when critiques are concerned. I admit that some of the things I say, when critiquing someones work, is not a 100% correct a 100% percent of the time. Still, I accept my shortcomings, in stride, and do my best to give individuals sound advice, advice that has been passed on to me bu reputable artists/teachers.

I have heard Mr. "G" American artist, deceased recent years, say that he went back to Paxton for two years in order to study drawing because his drawing was average.

Many artists of today have the notion that it is all about painting and the drawing will come automatic. This is like putting the cart in front of the horse. I toss this out being that many reputable artists critique and encourage this practice. Even when someone is painting it is still about drawing and color/values.

Sure it is important to work from life, especially when portraits are in question, but some have a difficult time with this fact, for what ever reason, and all they have is photos. Some do not have a talent but have a strong desire. Do you just brush them aside? NO! I believe that everyone should have a chance but they should be encouraged to practice sound techniques especially in drawing. If the drawing is sound one can use any color and make a face look fantastic. I believe that the impressionist and the movements of that time have done a grave injustice by branding academic studies as evil. It is not the studies that were evil it was the monopoly that brings things to not. I truly believe that this was the fight of that time, the impressionists.

I am of the opinion that everyones work should be critiqued, pro or not, before it should go to unveilings section. Why? First because even a pro can fall in love with the work and will miss some critical points that can present his/her work in a bad way. Second, a pro can benefit from such a critique. Third, another artist can benefit as well from such critiques, most artists make similar mistakes. The list is endless.

All can take part in the critique section and this is good and this can be humbling. When I was at the academy one of the instructors came to me and gave me a critique. I accepted the critique and moved the entire eye 3mm towards the nose. After the eye was moved I realized that it was not the eye that needed adjusting rather the nose needed the attention. It took two such critiques before I realized that it was up to me to way the information offered. Now when accepting a critique one is to test, check, think before moving a eye, nose etc.

Please excuse me if I have discouraged anyone by my comments it is never my intention to do such a thing. I stand to be corrected on any point and offer my thoughts only towards the positive.

Thank you for taking the time.

I wish you nothing but the best

Well program or attitude, the idea remains the same, to take someone under one's wing and help them progress in their skills. I agree with both of you that having to repeat the same issues over and over is a tired some affair, but that's what a mentor does. The students change, but the subject remains the same.

I was only throwing out some ideas and actually getting off track about what I really wanted to address.

I totally agree. I think our moderators have been more than generous with their time and I also believe that some fatigue has set in due to the 1st mentioned reason. I agree that more people need to step forward and participate in the critique section. But I don

Misha.
That is an excellent idea! I think before one is invited to post in the unveiling section, there should be an introduction in the critique section with a short write up as to how this piece came to be, any special things learned, any new materials used, etc. Then having let it sit there for a week for every artist to comment on, the artist could post in the unveiling section. I want to point out that I am not for having the worked juried in, rather than having it up for a general discussion before unveiling.

Some of the post are so full of ah's an ooh's that it becomes rather embarrassing to say:"But, I think this could benefit from that...."

The final call weather to make changes or not has to be that of the artist, and critique givers should not feel offended. Just because this time around something did not get changed, for reasons we might not be aware of does not mean that the critique was not taken to heart and corrections be applied to the next project.

By having work in the critique section before unveiling it, it also forces every member to contribute and get an exchange of ideas and topic going.

[QUOTE=Enzie Shahmiri] I agree with both of you that having to repeat the same issues over and over is a tired some affair, but that's what a mentor does. The students change, but the subject remains the same . . .

After reading several posts I got the impression that there is this an undercurrent perception that this forum has become somewhat snobbish and intolerant. . . . I like this forum because it sets a high standard, but just like the Academy, which really shot itself in the foot by being too stringent, we need to be more tolerant of people

Regarding moderator fatigue, there are not a lot of people who want to be a moderator.

Dear Richard,

As I said it is simply an impression I got how some are viewing the forum, while reading the posts. I am not saying that the forum is snobbish and I don't argue with defending knowledge and capability. I am only pointing out that there seems to be some discontent and 'am inviting old and new forum members to think of ways to improve and increase participation.

Ok, point taken! I never said they evaporated either, but they did loose members. ;)

Here I reserve the right to partially disagree. You are right insofar that there need to be standards. The mere fact that people are already being juried in means that they have to pass a certain standard.

But the forum, by the mere definition of the word itself, needs to be a place where people with common interests can communicate and exchange ideas freely. Tolerance in how we deal with each other and what it is we expect from one another is what needs to be looked at. What does it say about the forum, when members are complaining that they feel ignored, harshly chastised or in some rare cases publicly attacked? What does it say when contributing members feel ignored and taken advantage of? It points to a lack of proper communication between membership.

I have learned tremendously through what other people have shared here and through hard work and initiative of my own have made great progress as an artist. Does this mean I am done learning?! By no means! Does it mean I will digress at times? Certainly! Will I listen to every advise given and follow it blindly? Certainly not! Do I expect everyone who I give advise to to follow it as well. Of course not.

In a forum setting you offer what you have to give for those who are interested and might benefit and you take away what you need . As an avid believer that no matter how accomplished one is, there are always things that can be learned, I'll be visiting this forum in my 90"s, provided it's still here. :sunnysmil

My goal was to attract attention to an occurrence and solicit participation in finding solutions. For what it's worth, I will try to think of ways to contribute more and hope that my feeble attempts will benefit someone out there. :)

Cynthia, I am not surprised to hear that!

If any artist has benefitted from a critique, I feel they should reciprocate by offering one to those who put their work up for comment. It's only fair.

A few words, well said, are better than nothing. "Nothing" is very daunting. One can't help but wonder why- like Enzie said.

Sometimes I am so busy, that I know I would do a disservice to an artist, because I do not have enough time to critique well. But I'll try to make more effort.

How about it, everyone?

Mirror mirror on the wall!
 

I think it's pretty obvious that the reason participation is on the wane is because this forum is heavily flawed. I don't think that the needs or interests of the portrait community are being served at all.

To me, the portrait industry is awash in a sea of mediocrity and the sole purpose of the powers that be is to maintain the status quo. Those who challenge the accepted tenets and refuse to bow down to false idols are summarily dismissed. Beige rules.

I think the bulk of those who choose to not participate here have no interest because there is just not much going on. It's a snooze-fest, a nice little tea sipping society where superficial politeness seems to be the rule. Artists are rebels by nature and need to be challenged. The biggest challenge here is not falling asleep at the keyboard.

I also blame some of the moderators who let their own personal agendas get in the way.

If it ain't broke don't fix it. It's broke!

"Artists are rebels by nature" even though there is truth in this statement I believe this could be the case in many other professional directions. One example a air force pilot and the list can be endless.

If one has had success as a artist one knows that the road the artist travels is in no ways simple. I have personally invested much, in many respects, in order to learn what I know today. Honestly though, I just now realize how much it is I do not know. Still, what I do know, I do not mind sharing with others that are less fortunate. From my vantage point, It is sad to see what is passed along as "masterfully done art" especially in the world of portrait.

I dare any artist to render every hare from life. While using a photo, artists seem to think that perfect hair rendering is to be a must or the portrait is not true to life.
Sure there are paintings and drawings that are quite appealing when not totally rendered but this is no excuse for not knowing the basics. To categorize such art as masterful is falsity. It is unfortunate but true that picture perfect rendering and lack of basic drawing skills is passed of as masterful art. One can deceive some of the people some of the time but not all the people all the time.

It is sad to see that many artists of today have not the basic knowledge of drawing but they proudly sell under the title of "fool time pro".

As for the forum it is SO rich with talent and with generosity. The owner of this forum has generously allowed and trusted the members to uphold her perspective of standard. At the same time she has exaggerated flexibility and at times to sincere extreme. It is but individuals, sad to say, that think it is their pet pee and do and can bring any forum down. Having leadership skills is one thing but to blindly think that I am the only one that knows what will benefit another is blind leadership. It is sad when I receive mail from members where they state to me that they have received discouraging mails. It is even worse when members receive instruction discouraging one to help another.

I believe this forum should fly the flag of honesty and stand for true artistry. To be a member means you accepted curtain standards and these standards need to be upheld being a newbee or a moderator. Being a member or moderator entitles you to the same respect but it should not entitle you to abuse someones lack of artistic skill and knowledge. Being a member and especially a moderator allows you to participate, encourage but not to forget the flag of honesty. I have heard many a time, on this forum, that members are tired of receiving pats when they are looking for honest helpful advice.

Still, like it has been pointed out, this forum is not just about critique it is about exchange of ideas and information. In this respect this forum functions quite well. Sure some things need and can be adjusted and improved. I am sure in time individuals will bring forward good suggestions and the forum will adopt the same.

As for the position of moderator I believe that the moderators on this forum are doing a excellent job. It is but one or two that step over the line and forget to notice the big picture. I think that if one wishes to be a leader one must know how to serve, before he/she could properly lead. Stepping on people along the way as one rushes for the position of leader, encouraging rather discouraging excellence is not a good sign of a leader or moderator.

My sincere and best to all

Gee, Marvin, you've outdone yourself.

Then they're partly to blame, don't you think? Must be the same bunch who sit in front of the TV, don't vote, don't volunteer, and wouldn't think of mentoring without submitting a bill for services. The ones who sit in chairs, arms folded, and say "Entertain me. Learn me."

Marvin, if you're going to champion the ideal portrait artist as a rebel, it ill serves your thesis to complain a few sentences later that some moderators have their own self-interest at heart, or that they have a "personal agenda." Is there anyone less interesting than someone who does NOT have a personal agenda? And anyway, do you not have your self-interest at heart? Of course you do.

Lucian Freud is a rebel. Traditionalists aren't. Nothing wrong with that, but no use conflating rebellion with rabble rousing.

Yet you keep coming back. Is there nothing at all that you like about the Forum? If not, why the visits to the snoozefest? And why the contempt, without offering a single practical suggestion, save to bemoan the mediocrity of all other practitioners and to cite unspecified accepted "tenants" (who, after all, merely occupy apartments, though many do have personal agendas.)

How does this compare to the forum you offer on your website?

I wasn't going to say anything further, but since I am the one who stirred the hornet's nest, I need to make another request.

Please let's not attack each other (moderators or members), the world is not perfect and neither are we. Although sad, but mistakes and bad judgments are a daily occurrence and part of being a human being.

The goal here is to come up with solutions to stop loosing people and to create a productive environment. Please let's all forget the past and focus on the future.

Steven, you had me at "you've outdone yourself." Then I read further.

Perhaps I should have stated that, in my opinion, those who aspire to be great portrait artists are rebels. A rebel is someone who questions the status quo and looks for better answers. You can't achieve greatness by doing what every one else does. Lucien Freud is not a rebel, he's an anarchist. Bad example. Nelson Shanks, who happens to be at the top of the current heap, is quite contentious. I don't agree with some of his ideas but I applaud his efforts to shake things up.

The point here being that the gist of this thread is, "why is the forum participation dwindling." I'm offering my point of view. Long winded diatribes in defense of the forum aren't going to put fannies in the seats. At least I have the guts to put out a point of view, be it right or wrong. What are your suggestions for improving participation, Steven?

Regarding moderators, their job is to moderate. Umpires at a baseball game may be lifelong fans of a team they are officiating but their job demands objectivity and a setting aside of personal bias and grudges.

As a poster my job is to state my point of view. My agenda is to open up the eyes of others with the end goal of bettering the lot for all of us. As an educator and a working portrait artist I say to educate others makes things better for all. Ignorance isn't bliss, it's servitude.

I see many artists here and at the conferences buying into a culture of mediocrity because they can't even fathom there can be more out there. Read Philip Hales book on Vermeer, written almost 100 years ago, and see what the great Boston artists felt about painting.

Paxton was actually quite chippy and his student Gammel felt in the long run it hurt him. I understand exactly where Paxton was coming from. When certain commonly accepted practices and ideas are never questioned it can become quite maddening, especially to those who can see that the emperor is indeed naked.

Reading the Hale book was very eye opening. They knock many of the biggies of representational art. Reading this book has encouraged me to speak my mind. My agenda is to speak for the greater good.

How about if some of those of you who don't normally post chime in here.

One of the things I sometimes say to new artists on the main site, don't just sit back and wait for something to happen. Be interested in your site, talk about it, make changes to it periodically to keep it fresh. I said this after I noticed that some people would get a web site and then just sit back and wait for something to happen instead of being proactive. And then they would not understand that nothing happened. I think there may be a similar situation here.

Any group is only as good as those who participate. And, I think those who would like the Forum to be a better place should be proactive about helping that happen.

And in any situation in life, a person can sit back and blame, saying it's the other guys fault. Is it the fault of the Board or moderators that some people have left? In some cases probably. Is it the fault of some members who have chosen to be attacking that some members have left/ Probably. But, the higher road is to take positive action and make positive contributions and not get into the blame game.

Does the Forum ownership have the right to define the parameters for the Forum - to say what it will be and not be? Absolutely. Just because this Forum is displayed publicly for all to see, there is no obligation to be all things to all people.

As defined previously, this Forum is about traditional portraiture - as is the main site. This Forum is not intended to exist by itself - it is intended as a reflection of the main site. It's purpose is not even primarily teaching - it is for information exchange. If teaching results from that, that's great.

By the way, rebellion and diplomacy do not have to be mutually exclusive. Rebellion and tolerance are not necessarily mutually exclusive either.

I think when there have been cat fights in the past that have sent people running for the hills, it is usually as a result of "my way is the one and only true way." Seldom is there only one way to do something and it's an attitude that will scare people and make them run for the hills. Sometimes you just have to agree to disagree.

There are the forever students. There are the forever teachers. How about if everyone were a bit student and a bit teacher?

I agree. Question is, what are the needs and interests of the portrait community? At one level, it is about repetetive questions of what solvent to use, which brush is best. I think you're in a position to state authoritatively what would serve the portrait community.

Those are good, challenging statements that should elicit some positive input as to how this forum might provide stimulaltion and real value for those who read here.

Enzie, for my part, there is a big difference between active, witty, passionate and even contentious exchanges in discussion that don't fall to the gutter level of ad hominem attack and rancor. Marvin and I had just such a spirited exchange last spring on the subject of materials, yet there is no ill will. (Hey, Marvin, I'm still serious about buying you that beer . . . but I never found you at Reston - what a crowd!)

This forum has been quite unique in maintaining reasonable decorum, yet allowing strong, opposing opinions to be posted. A lot of valuable information results from such exchanges. Nicey-nice Thumper-like chit-chat that "respects" all opinions to the point of levelling all to a subjective LCD is what fades to beige . . .

Marvin,

Tenants - residents who are accepted? Who are the accepted tenants? Where do they live? Maine?

Obviously they don't live in Rhode Island or New Hampshire. ;-) How kind of you to take the time to point out my spelling error. I'm sure you'll be pleased to know I corrected it on my original post.

Richard, thanks for responding to the heart of my message and proving there is indeed intelligent life on Earth. Now I owe you a drink.

Cynthia, I don't think revisiting history benefits anyone. I do think that it's always important to look in the mirror and ask what can I do differently. That goes from those of us on the bottom of the flo-chart to those at the tippy top. It's also important to evaluate where things can be improved.

Oh for goodness sake, Mr. Mattelson, obviously you have to revisit history if for nothing other than finding out what you are being different from.

(You are certainly having success with your attempt to destagnate the forum.)

Thank you!

I'll take another stab at second-guessing Marvin's mindset (in hopes of upgrading a beer to a double JD) . . .

Backwards-looking art has never made the "canon". There was always something vital, new, interesting and different about masterworks that have come to resonate through generations.

Consider the legions of very competent craftsmen the various national academies "cranked out". During the period of time they held sway over art education - from the 19th century until well into the 20th, they produced literally legions of artists whose technical abilities stand more than head and shoulders above the average work posted in this forum.

Yet, now long past whatever modest success they earned during their own lifetimes, they are forgotten, unappreciated, and have been tossed on history's scrap-heap because they were never able to rise to the challenge of defining the art of their times. If they shaped it at all it was only by underscoring accepted aesthetics and conventions that had been "set" by others.

To become universally meaningful, "great" art must at once honestly reflect the times and the societies which provide for its gestation as well as transcend those same boundaries of history and culture.

It's a tall order, and while we definitely can't escape (nor should we ignore) the historical foundations and influences of great masters both past and present, any art of the 21st century that will ultimately become regarded as truly "great" will have to meet that requirement. It certainly will not be the art that merely recapitulates what has already been accomplished (and much better) in past centuries merely by mimicking the craft.

There's no escaping the fact that beyond mere craft (Wow! Lookie! You can count every hair!) no painting has any more merit than what it is able to communicate through its content and the concepts that drove its making.

Marvin,

I am so GLAD they don't live in those two states. They sound like dreadful bores. I am glad for the clarification, so I have a somewhat better idea of just what direction to prostrate myself.

Sharon I'll choose not to respond since I wouldn't my post deleted for being off topic, plus a true gentleman wouldn't kick someone who's down.

Richard, sorry but I was talking about previous history as related to this forum. The point I was trying to make was about not rehashing past discretions and just focusing on current ones.

I think the subject you bring up could be the start of it's own topic. For what it's worth Vermeer was virtually unknown until late in the 19th Century. Bouguereaus that were selling for $10,000 in the 1970's now go for millions.

I am really sorry Marvin, I did not know you were down.

Dang. There goes the "double".

I do think the question of the "value" of art is truly fascinating. True, a big chunk of Vermeer's known works were "lost" for at least a hundred years, and hence out of view.

I'm suspicious of the record prices that artwork of all kinds (from pickeled sharks to Bouguereau to Picasso) currently bring at auction. If actual "market value" ever truly was a reliable reflection of true aesthetic merit, I'm afraid the guage got busted in the 60's . . . and ain't been fixed since.

Bouguereau commanded megabucks in his own time, and fell entirely from grace by the time of his own death (1905). If I recall correctly, Alan Funt, of "Candid Camera" fame started the gold rush on his work, collecting them for "peanuts" . . . but mostly because he, personally, considered them ineffably, ridiculously and egregiously bad.

While I feel he didn't deserve the neglect and castigation that was his lot c.1910-1990, I'm not sure those who worship at his altar currently aren't a little "fevered" in their appreciation. Values? When it comes to spending millions, I'd rather see it go for a Bougie than a pickeled shark, or a pile of garbage strewn about an empty room!