Boy in question
 

I have posted in the Creative Issues and said that I would attempt to post my image in question here. It is an Oil on Canvas, 20 x24 and as you can see, only partially done. I am having problems and will not go into them only to say that I have labored over this too long. Any suggestions are welcome,

I am hoping to post the reference following this one.
Thanks

Patt

The reference for Boy:

Pat,

I've read about your problem in the "Creativity" section, so I have some idea of the situation.

I'm going to be really blunt. You MUST start again. No amount of fiddling and re-working is going to result in a likeness. Starting from the assumption that you need the money and want to feel the satisfaction of having completed this commission, there are two reasonable choices.

1) Use the reference photo you have, re-measure very, very carefully, and start again on a fresh canvas. There are serious errors of proportion in the portrait that I am sure you can correct, but only if you put that one aside first. If you are still having trouble, making a grid on an enlarged copy of the reference and then transferring this grid (in the correct proportions) to a canvas might help. One thing to watch out for especially is the tendency to straighten everything out. In your portrait you have made the boy totally frontal, whereas in the photo he is turned very slightly to the side.

2) You could take your own photos. There is lots of excellent advice on this forum. Even with an ordinary camera you could get results (light/shadow) superior to the photo you are using. He looks like a really appealing subject and I'm sure you could get a lot of enjoyment out of this commission with a better reference photo.

Compare and contrast
 

Dear Pat,

I hate to say it but I feel Alex is right. There is too much to correct on this canvas. Also the rendering of the light and shadow makes little sense with many inconsistencies from the reference. You will feel much better and confident with a clean good start.

Start again. Pay very close attention to drawing, proportion, and measurement. Pay very close attention to keeping the values consistent with the reference, so the light and shadow masses read well and make sense. Take your time on this and don't give into pressure to hurry. A careful start will make the finish a breeze by comparison. Be willing to make big changes and revisions in your drawing (I constantly revise and refine as I paint). Don't over-sharpen edges, and don't feel any edge or shape is so precious. Revise, compare, contrast, measure again, and refine.

Make a print of the reference image to the exact same scale as your painting, to aid in your proportion and measurement visualization. You wil feel so much better and more confident!

Garth

Ouch !! :( Not that I did not expect that. Something happens between the start of the portrait and proceeding onward in my mind. Also I listen to others ( all the time needing affirmation) and they say you have the likeness ( not wanting to hurt my feelings probably) and ---hubby, looking for that monetary pay off questioning when, when, when are you getting that finished and off ? My creativeness has flown and feel that if I could block out all life at this point and continue then I could get it. I guess that's the difference in a Pro such as you guys are and myself.Well, thanks Garth and Alex for your blunt critique. It is deeply appreciated.

I will indeed do it over as difficult as it is. I have lost complete feel for this portrait and yet feel so obligated. I pray she does not call. The grandmother is in another state and this is 2 or her 4 grandchildren.

Thanks again and wish me luck.

Patt

Dear Patt,

I apologize for the bluntness, which is rare from me, especially when you need an affirmation to bounce off of. I too have made all these same "mistakes" in portraits I have done, and more than once I have started again, for the right result. I painfully came to the conclusion that I needed to paint Arianna and Taylor again (yes, there are two versions of this painting), and also Laura at Thirteen , the first version of which still haunts me, sitting in a surreal way on a big chair in another room. I had a bad start on Laura's face, and starting over was the right thing to do. I know it is not easy to focus again on a new canvas, but the courage and conviction returns when everything falls into place, as intended. So I've meant this critique to be affirmative for you, while blunt.

Here are some basics I'd keep in mind:
1. Relative to the shirt, the head is somewhat larger, and quite wide and round. Getting this relationship right will better represent the scale and age of this boy.

2. Get the vertical center line of the features, off center to our right, as shown in the reference. You seem to have reversed this.

3. Pay attention to the angle of the features, thinking of an imaginary angled line running through the eyes.

4. Note that the nose is shorter, but even wider in its wings; and that the eyes are wide set in relation. Draw a triangle traversing the tip of the nose and the eyes, and you will see it is vertically very shallow compared to your portrait.

5. The smile is wide. Pay attention to the shape of the mouth and lips.

6. The ears are diminished in semi-shadow, especially his left ear. Don't make the ear as bright a value as the chin! Also note the geometry and placement of the ears, especially in how they relate to the tips of that smile.

7. Be careful in explaining the hair color, which appears to be a standard winter-time blond so common with kids. I am confused by the dominance of dark and rich umbery browns, denoting decidedly a darker different hair color. On the other hand, much has to do with the nature of the transition from the light mass on the forehead diminishing as it reaches the hair. Get those transitions right, in relationship, and you can use dark values that describe blond!

8. Echoing what I just said, keep the modeling of the light in shade in relationship to the reference, without any unexplainable deviations, as (especially) in the neck.

While your current portrait has a degree of resemblance to the boy, it will be a strong likeness and winning portrait if you keep these guidelines in check. I do indeed wish you the very best with this commission!

Garth

Another thought:
 

Patt,

A good tried and true centuries-old technique to get the placement and drawing right, and spot-on, is the Grid Method. It's worth a try, and just as effective as tracing or projection. Make certain the aspect ratio of the start grid on the reference and the applied grid on the painting are the same (!) or you may get the face too wide or too tall. It is easy to get right. Print a spare reference image for the grid lines.

Also print a reference to scale with your painting. That's always a big visual help!

Good luck!

Garth

Well, here is another humble beginning. I always do an umber study ( this is not complete with that). then to a dead color ( similar to the Old Master Flemish) and then into color. Am I even on the right track? I feel uplifted to have at least started over. I knew in my heart ( and eyes) that it was over for the last one. Please advise.

Patt

Hi Pat-

I'll throw a little bit in here. Hope it helps.

This second attempt is better. It more closely approximates the likeness. But I am sorry, but I feel that there are still some drawing errors, that I will leave to people better able than I to voice.

To make it more like the child, I think you will benefit from either :
1. using a grid, as suggested, or

2. making the photo the same size as the painting, take tracing paper, trace the photo and lay it over the painting to look for drawing errors.

Many of us, including, I am convinced, the Old Masters, have certain characteristic distortions that show up when we draw. In my case, I know that I am almost certain to lengthen a head. My guess is it happens because I am used to seeing my own long, narrow head in
the mirror. I have to measure my portraits, especially the oil ones, because they can so easily go off. I also put the original and the art in Photoshop, line them up and compare. I often use the tracing paper method to check.

Before you go any further, check your measurements and make corrections. Best to take a long long time now when there is just an underpainting to deal with. You're on the right track.

Better, Patt,

Nice brushwork. But do what Julie and I suggest regarding a grid or tracing. Please do enlarge and print the reference to the same size. It only takes a few minutes. Also use a mirror to check your drawing from time to time.

Good luck,

Garth

Good morning, Julie and Garth. :sunnysmil

I woke up thinking about this of course and couldn't wait to read. Well, I appreciate your input again.Following is the exact course that I took:

I scanned the original then cropped the head-I re-sized it to approximately the size that I have on old painting ( in this case it came out 8x10 as you see here in my attachment)--I then actually laid it onto the canvas and traced it as you can see the trace marks on the paperwork. ( I have never traced a portrait in my life) I feel at this time like I am cheating and furthermore, going backwards. Anyway, that is what I did. Now tell me how in the world did that still go wrong? Leave it up to me to do that kind of thng. I see what you are saying and actually my drawing on canvas looked smaller so I actually held it up to my brushwork and it is the same. Now what???

By the way, Garth, how do you OVERLAY each item on each other in Photo-shop? I assume you did that in Photo-shop. I am just now learning how to do some things in it.

Thanks again and please be patient with me. I really hope to learn better now that I know better.

Patt

Opps !!! Not enough coffee this a.m. Now the attachment. :oops:

Dear Pat,
I`d say do not trace. but measure, measure, measure. and
check the angles, measure the outline and the shapes. Do not think in terms of eyes and mouth but try to see only the shapes. Do not trust your eyes at all.this is about making a copy to please your client, remember.:-) wish you the best in this process.

Hi Pat,

I just checked in here this morning and found that a lot has happened in the meantime. That's great! I am so glad you got over the initial sinking feeling and jumped right in.

I sometimes run into problems, too, in a portrait. Occasionally I get the likeness almost right and I paint the head several times over, but each time something is just a little off. That is when I use a grid or some kind of measuring method. It's a way of discovering what is going wrong. Usually, as Julie says, each artist has certain tendencies to distort things in certain ways, If you are conscious of your own tendencies, then it becomes easier to correct them. In other words, drawing a grid can be a good teaching tool, as long as you don't use it as a crutch, only when necessary. So doing this now does not mean you are now labeled a "cheater." You can use this experience to push yourself to the next step, i.e., attend life-drawing sessions or open studios, or try the Barque method. Or just practice drawing your husband and friends.

I want to suggest one other thing: when you do your monochrome study, try not to put in too much value contrast and detail. At this point, you should not be worrying about the shine on the lips and the divisions between his teeth. Indicate the teeth as a block of light value. Indicate the eyes without making hard, dark lines. Tone down your light/dark contrast in the skin and try not to exaggerate the highlights. You might feel that you have to do these things to insure the likeness, but actually these exaggerated value shifts and fine details detract from the likeness. They also are unnecessary because you will be painting over them. In addition, when you work up a drawing/underpainting to that extent it becomes difficult to paint over.

Grethe and Alexandra, thanks again. I would like to send you to the following link as to the monochrome study. It is not this artist that I study under necessarily but use his guidance occasionally as I look often here on the Forum for other methods. But I want to say that I indeed have been taught by others in this technique and it is absolute detail that I have subscribed to doing. Now having said that-- I feel absolutely that my drawing[B] must[/B] to be very precise or (as you stated Alex, it would be very difficult to paint over). So my problems and they seem to be many, are those of accurate drawing . I really need to draw more often and this I realize.

I will try to do better and Grethe, the measuring is definitely a must. How odd that measuring is something that I stress in my teaching of painting ( still life , I do not teach portraiture) :D Go figure.

Ok I am off to the easel once again. Thanks for your patience on this and I apologize for taking up so much time and space on this Oil Critique section.

Check out the link below please. I assume some of you already are familiar with Antonov's work, whether or not you agree is not the question.

Best Regards

Patt



http://www.antonovart.com/tech.html

[QUOTE=Patt Legg]
By the way, Garth, how do you OVERLAY each item on each other in Photo-shop? I assume you did that in Photo-shop. I am just now learning how to do some things in it.
/QUOTE]

Hi Patt,

Good work! I agree with Alex and Grethe. It's not cheating, and you won't always want to use a grid or trace ( I certainly don't want to often), but these are tools to aid in visualization and internalization of the imagery. Look, if it was acceptable for Thomas Eakins to use a projector and measue to death 130 years ago, then one should not feel guilty following in his tradition today when needed. Even if you grid, trace or project, you STILL have to paint it, and it still requires considrable skill and practice to do this well. As long as, as an artist, one observes from life too, one should be in good stead with these occasional aids. I myself have gone absurdly high tech at times, and I've gained much from doing so; interestingly I feel more drawn to work from life now. As Alex says, as long as one does not use these tools and techniques as a constant crutch, there is nothing to be ashamed of. As Grethe suggests, measuring a lot helps you to see more important nuances and relationships.

Sometimes one can draw better and capture the shapes and relationships when seeing things from a different context or viewpoint. Drawing a portrait upside-down could help in this regard. Also by checking one's progress in a mirror from time to time, one can easily see and react to something being really off in the drawing or proportions.

The "overlay" you ask of is a GIF format animation, indeed done in Photoshop. I do not know which versions of Photoshop include Animation, but I am using CS2. If you do not have this animation tool, then you still can overlay another Layer of a second image, which can be very useful. By using the slider to adjust Layer Opacity, you can find the comparison you want.

Garth

Pat, untill very recently I thought that measuring the approx. placement proportions would do. I learned that to get a likeness one will have to measure everything at least twice, and not trust the eye. I guess I have to tell my self this many times in the future. When it comes to cheating I`d say we cheat ourselves when we trust the eye only.
your painting of this boy will be a success.

Thanks again Grethe, especially for your vote that "this painting will be a success". I promise I am giving it my utmost to do just that. When I first wrote in the Creative forum, I was so very discouraged.

As stated prior, after the umber, I always go into the dead color, in a grayish , greenish layers. So I am posting it here once again to show it. I think better but still a problem with teh mouth particularly. Any other comments are useful and will be considered.

Patt

Patt,

This is looking much, much better. I hope you're feeling encouraged, as you should be.

As you mentioned, there are some problems with his mouth. The upper lip is too curvy. If you put the reference photo and the painting side-by-side and move your eyes rapidly back and forth between the two, you will see the difference. You've also pinched in the lower lip a bit near the corners of the mouth. The nostrils appear crooked in relation to each other. The ears should not narrow as they go up into the hair.

Also, watch the values. Already there are problems that will stay with you throughout if you do not tackle them now and keep watching for them to reappear. The eyelid creases are much too dark and hard. The neck is too dark and the shadow doesn't match the shadow in the photo, which means it is not consistent with the lighting in the photo. Thus it looks dirty. The ears pop out because they are too light. They should be the same value as the sides of the face. It looks as though you've given an exaggerated plumpness to the lips by adding too much shine/contrast. when someone is smiling, their lips stretch and thin out, so the plump appearance is not appropriate and may be adding to the problem you are having with the mouth.

These are just some things to keep in mind. I'm looking forward to seeing your progress.

Dear Pat

This is a very nice beginning. It is soft and warm and cheerful. You have a very nice sense of the slight plumpness in the boy's face, and it's a very nice likeness.

With the mouth, I think that the bottom lip works well. You have a nice sense of it stretching over the bottom teeth and the edges are softened in places so that the bottom lip looks part of the skin of the face.

The curves on the underside of the top lip, though, are a little too exaggerated - if you compare them to the photo. They need to be straightened out a bit. And there is some space around the teeth where both lips join at the edges (where there are the gaps between the teeth at the sides of the mouth). It is indicated by a darkness. I wouldn't paint each tooth and the gaps between in detail at the edge, though, but just suggest the space by softening the edges (i.e no sharp lines or edges). And also by bringing the tone of the white of the teeth at the side of the mouth down to a darker colour too would help suggest that space.

Also the lips look a little too wide. They are, perhaps, not too wide, but the sharpness of the edges where the lips join make a kind of arrow effect, which makes your eyes move outwards too much: thus the feeling of the lips being too wide.

A great thanks to everyone. You are exactly correct. It is funny after I posted it,I could see the teeth gaps, the nostril uneven, the harshness in the neck and all. Alex, the ears are light because I just have not worked on them but thanks, I realize that the value needs to change. The lips too are indeed too plump.

Grethe, again I seem to trust the old eye and it certainly does not work all the time. That too is why I chose to post here. I really needed (as you all can clearly see) a new insight and fresh eyes to see all of the above. As I had stated in the Creativity section, I had just about given up and was quite depressed about this and his sisters painting as well. Yes, there is one more and no, I am afraid to post it here. I will just start it over.

Thanks to all of you here, I have more zest :sunnysmil now to tackle them. When your creativity goes out the door and the every day functions of life seem to be too much, it just gets very difficult as I am sure you all have experienced.

Garth, thanks too for your Photoshop info. I found that animation tool is here on mine. I will need to play with it awhile and see how to use it. One more question on this. I see that I can grid the photos too . I need to figure out how to make both (reference and painting) the exact size and the proportions of the squares on the grid the same too. This would certainly be of much help at times like this. I also wish one could print them with the grid but I do not think that you can keep the grid on them. I share this PC with hubby so I cannot leave it always here .

The week-end will not see much painting with grandson playing ball, etc.so I will post again when I feel I have corrected some of the suggested items.

God Bless
Patt

Dear Patt,
I think part of your problem is that you accepted to work from such bad reference. Now if it can make you feel any better, I do that too. I am not a professional but a lot of people come and ask me to draw their kids or something from bad photos. I have for the time being 3 such commissions. ;C However I have promised myself never again to accept this kind of photos., in fact I would rather work from life., it is easier.!
Wish you the best result ever on your commission. And in the future you might want to resist to accept these kind of requests too. Promise? :)

Dear Pat,

Hang in there, you are on the right track by following the wonderful suggestions given. I used to grid and this has helped me to look strictly at the puzzle shapes that make up the whole. After I was shown how to use the proportional divider, I found that it is a faster and easier way to get the correct placement.
If you search you should be able to find one under $100 dollars. Here is one link

http://www.cgedwards.com/Weems/weems01.html
I now print the desired image in black and white, so I can see the value relationships, then I do a rough sketch, pick one reference point and start measuring. Since the former grid would get painted over, this tool allows you to double check yourself at any stage of the painting. The monitor is now used to zoom in to see details and for color reference.

Thanks so much Enzie and Grethe, this Forum has been a life saver for me and so many others. I have to add that I have had better response this time than ever before here on the Forum and for that I am so grateful.

I will take all into consideration when I proceed. At the moment I have suffered set back with an injured shoulder ( muscle or or tissue damage) , nothing severe but have to take it real easy. Standing or sitting is painful. So I shall return to my painting soon I am sure.

Grethe, I would like to promise you that but I know me. I sometimes think that I can just do anything. I want so much to be so good that I can study and convert any problem areas in a photo. :bewildere I guess I had better reconsider, huh? :?

Enzie, I think those would help, not that I know how to use them but common sense tells me how to figure it out. What is the difference in the dividers you show here and the other ones ( $18.99) on the site you sent me? It says Ultralight Divider / Compass.

Thanks again and I shall return

Patt

Pat, I wish you a fast recovery.!

I don't know the differences between the calibers. The one I suggest is the one that was recommended to me and I love using it. Over the years I have learned to invest in good quality supplies and it is of utmost importance that your measurements don't shift as you begin to work.

With this caliber you take one end and measure lets say the height of the models head. Then you take the other end and adjust the settings until it corresponds with the size that you want the head to be on the canvas. Since I am awful at math, I just keep adjusting both ends until I have it right, but for those not mathematicaly challenged there is a probably a formula. Once you get the right size figured out you tighten the screw and voila all your measurements will correspond.

Patt,

I posted this on another thread on how to get a likeness. This may come as a surprise to you but I think you should get a blowup to the size you want to paint and trace it. Put a piece of transparent cellophane on the photo and copy the color. You will learn a lot about form and turn this painting out in a jig.

Many portrait artists trace and project, not all, but even some of the good ones. I was at a dinner with one well known one and he told me did. His paintings were quite accomplished. Many years ago when I was first starting I did this too. This is NOT a good way to start a portrait or figurative career, knowing what I know today, I would not do it that way. There were no ateliers around when I started so I took any path I could.

Most people just want a likeness. Just get it done. Then I would suggest you brush up on your drawing and painting skills from life. Do Bargues, whatever. most good portrait artists worth their salt can paint the same subject from life, but choose to take shortcuts. Projectors and tracing machines have been around for centuries.

Good advice from Sharon.

Tracing is a learning tool. I started out using it a lot when I got back to painting after years away (and quickly learned how much drawing practice I still needed). I don't use it as much now, but will use it to check as I go along to see if any portions of the portrait have "migrated".

Thanks Enzie, Sharon and Julie -I appreciate all advice.

Sharon, it didn't come as a surprise to me about the tracing you see --as that is exactly what I did. I blew up the photo, traced it onto the canvas. That is what you are seeing. Obviously you still see a drawing problem. I think personally the drawing was correct. The loss comes when I started the value study on canvas. You know yourself, the slightest slip of the brush and wa-la, that eye is different than the other or the lips are too fat or curvy. I agree I need more practice drawing. It''s beginning to feel like I indeed began my portrait career too soon as I have sold portraits for the past 7 years at least. This is the first time that I have had one to torture me so.

Thanks again, still dealing with un-usable left arm and yes I am right handed but the slightest twitch of the neck or movement of the left arm sends excruciating pain, so---still no progress on the painting.

Patt

Patt,

Treat it like a number painting. Outline all the light and shadow areas very ,very carefully and accurately . Trace the irises and the whites of the eyes, everything. Put a piece of transparent plastic over it and mix each value exactly. Do not make anything up on your own. Do not do an umber wash or underdrawing. Just fill in each area with the exact colr and value.

Tracing method
 

Hi
Hope this helps.

Patt,

Do a few more portfolio pieces with this tracing method, it is a very common practice and do your all commissions this way. They will all come out and your clients will be pleased.. The extra money will come in with the improvement in your portfolio. Just really trace each shadow and light area. Mix the colors right on the plastc covering to get them EXACT!

Then you can relax and go to the drawing classes and have fun!

Dan, it does help. Thanks. Did you ever feel like you are moving backwards? Maybe this is reality setting in. :bewildere

You have all been so very wonderful with your suggestions and I will try to do them soon.

Regards

Patt

Do not feel this way Patt. It is a fun way of making a living. Do not worry about your lack of knowledge, we have all been in the dark for 70-90 years about how to do this. There were no courses, no internet, no DVD's.

We have all had to move backwards. Do not feel alone or ashamed. You know enough now, which is more than most, how to paint a portrait. Don't look back with regret, it is a waste of time. If you can use this bit of information to provide you and your husband with a bit of comfort and security that is a wonderful thing. Just do it and don't worry about it. As I have said, it is a common practice. I hope all goes well with you and your husband. Life is short, enjoy.

Patt, with all do respect to all the forum member but I encourage you not to trace or use projectors. Even if someone has done this in the past or still uses this method it is up to you to chose what is right.

The right way to learn is a struggle this is true. The masters of old and all the good teachers encourage copying but not tracing. The only time a artist will trace is when doing a transfer even then it is encouraged to rather transfer by measurement than to trace. One must learn to draw by training the eye to see. With tracing one will never acheave this!

I address the distinguished members of this forum and plead that they encourage and teach the traditional methods of art. Please do not encourage tracing. It is bad enough that we at every turn are discouraged to work from live sittings. Sure we must make a living but at what cost.

I struggle for months to get a new supply of good brushes and I struggle to use the best materials and all this I add to skill taught and passed on by the old masters. When commissions are slow I work on new things for possible upcoming exhibits. I also teach and take photos at weddings to earn a living. This Sunday I will be spending the day taken photos of old timer cars. For that I will receive 100 euros. Will I teach students to trace NO! I will teach them to draw, copy from master drawings and work from life. When they can do these things then they can manipulate the photo to their advantage and not to copy the photo to perfection.

I agree it is up to each individual to chose their own way of doing art but please do not use wrong methods of art to encourage someone because they mite be down or struggling. If a person is discouraged or strugling, sure we wish to help, but encourage them by giving them good simple critiques and help them build on the skill that they already have. Don't give them more then they can chew.

My sincerest wishes and best to all

Patt,

Just get beyond this one. Continue as I have said with the tracing. Add some portraits this way and continue to fufill your commissions this way. It is a common practice. Many well known portrait artists do this, some make no bones about it. When you are making a comfortable income you can take a few workshops as Mischa advises.

Patt,

Whenever you feel you are moving backwards, you are actually about to move forwards. The only problem is that it is an uphill climb, and you need to find extra momentum and resources within yourself.

I think people have suggested tracing (I myself suggested the grid method because you are drawing freehand, but learning to see and judge relationships of angles, distance, negative/positive space, etc. within smaller areas) because it is a way to get these commissions done that have been plaguing you for a long time. I agree that it is not a long-term solution, but we've already said all that.