So when is a student ready to be a teacher?
 

I have so much apprehension about my ability to critique others on this site since I feel so comparably new too all of this myself.

Sometimes when something grabs me I feel the need to say a few things which really translates into me spending an hour on a reply. My concern is that it may not be totally what they were looking for, the advise is not followed or the dreaded "consider the source".

Do you feel this is a confidence factor that an artist develops - a teaching function of an extremely qualified professional - or that all could have something good to add?

If you think the last statement is true, isn't it the blind leading the blind and Lord knows what path they are taking you down?

How about being nice? When you open something and cringe, do you think it's best to just close the thread or that someone should speak up and give a reality check, with a sense of decorum and encouragement of course. Should this be done in private?

I would love to hear your thoughts.

I've learned things from all artists, both beginning and experienced, on this Forum.

As far as when someone is ready to be a teacher, all it takes is that an artist knows a few things (or more than just a few things!) that their students don't know and that the teacher is willing to share that knowledge.

Hi Beth--
To my mind, there are different levels of critique. . . there is feedback on the correctness/success of the drawing (mostly objective), on the overall success of the compositional choices (more subjective?), and more technical advice, say on how to address issues or how to improve the success of a work. . .

The more objective kinds of feedback. . . even non-artists can be helpful in identifying/providing honest feedback there. (We all know how after looking intensely at something for hours/days on end, the artist can be 'blind' to it's weakness. . . so this is valuable input) On the other hand, non-artists are likely unable to provide any guidance on how to 'fix' most of the things they might identify as 'wrong'. The more technical and/or 'how-to' the feedback, the more useful when the 'source' has knowledge/expertise to offer. . . but little pearls of wisdom can come from the most unexpected sources sometimes!

Offering constructive feedback on someone's work that's been posted for feedback/critique -- it's a generous thing. (Especially, I think on something that's been otherwise overlooked or not responded to, for whatever reason!)

When the teacher is ready, the student will appear.


Beth, your post raises enough issues to "fund" this thread for a long time.

One of the most significant comments that you make is also one that I think can be put to best practical use. You indicated that even when you want to offer comments or critiques, even when the urge is nearly overwhelming, you know that you might have to spend an hour on it, and you just don't happen to have that time available. Now on the other end of that "exchange" is a person who signs on and doesn't see any critiques. What is that person to think? How very unfortunate it would be if he or she were to simply assume that everyone was stunned into silence by the sheer temerity of the artist to post such a dreadful thing. And while both of those actors are creating these "personal realities" through their thinking, the original image is still sitting there, just as it is, waiting patiently, filing its nails, oblivious to all those storylines being strung out.

In the same light, whether or not someone takes your advice is irrelevant to its value. (Otherwise, most world religions would collapse overnight, since most people don't take their "advice," either!) More important than whether someone alters his or her painting or drawing to accord with your comments and perceptions is whether someone (it could be the artist whose work you're considering, or it could be any of the 58 or 93 or 229 people we know only as "Views") found some useful nugget that they could take away and add to their own toolbox or cache of wisdom to be called upon in its own time.

The student has an obligation as well to train in being thoughtful and discriminating, to very consciously avoid being one of those "blind following the blind." An unhelpful critique is itself instructive -- if one takes the time to articulate why the advice, however well-intentioned, isn't apt in a particular piece. Getting it right the first time is, in a sense, of far less instructive value than getting it "wrong," discerning how you went astray, and fixing it. I guess my intent here is to say that the teacher-student relationship imposes obligations on both parties, and you -- as the teacher -- don't need to worry quite so much about whether your contribution is gold rather than bronze or, forbid, pyrite. You're offering guidance, not CPR, and you don't bear the burden of saving (or pleasing) everyone.

One dynamic that is evident on this and other forums is that those who give critiques tend to get them. Gratitude for being part of this community is revealed as much by what one gives back as by what one has received. And let's face it, it's just human nature to want to find that hour for someone who has found one or two for you or for others. Maybe it's a kind of quid pro quo, but maybe it's just because, as you've stated, time is limited and you want it to be well spent. To the sigh-ing resignation that there just isn't time to do critiques, or to teach, it's just a slight turn to a different perspective, that writing critiques and teaching expands the time you have. It makes your life larger.

The twist on the old phrase that I used for the heading here -- "When the teacher is ready, the student will appear" -- came to me on the drive to work this morning, and it is the crux of my long-winded comments. You've done your homework. You have a much-respected portfolio. You know more about this stuff than the majority of members and nonmembers who read this Forum every day. If you can refrain from telling yourself, "I'm not good enough yet to offer any useful advice," or "I don't have time for this," or "Nobody wants to hear what I have to say," then you might be surprised to discover that your students have been waiting for you, and they're ready to get to work. You won't always know who those students are until after you begin the instruction. Perhaps years after.

I didn't have "time" to write this post, but my day already feels larger for having done so. That's the way it works.

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I second that wholeheartedly. My personal experience is what it is but I have learned so much from individuals on this forum by just listening to their comments and struggles and what procedures they took to solve these personal issues. I am sure that many would love to give back more than they have received and when ready it will happen and as you say

I don't want to stop the flow of thoughts, so I am not adding conclusions yet.

Just a disclaimer in case some one is reading a confused, I didn't want you to take this as just "about me personally", but about all forum members in general.

Also by teacher, I meant offering advise, not workshop etc.

Well, perhaps I misunderstood your intended focus, Beth, since you began with a reference to your own "apprehension about [your] ability to critique others."

If you're asking instead why other Forum members might be disinclined to offer critiques, I of course don't know. I'm not sure why that would be important to know. I mean, if there were a resounding response, "We don't want to!" or "We're afraid to!" then I guess you'd know, but we'd still be spinning around on square one, waiting for someone to have a look at our drawings or paintings.

(We could try the ploy, "I'll pay you!", and in fact that's something that some Forums appear to be experimenting with. But that's for another time, in another thread.)

Perhaps they share your apprehension. I do. I haven't been doing this "art thing" very long, I don't do much of it, I know what my weaknesses are, and there probably isn't a more neurotically shy or less of a "public person" than me on this Forum. (Don't confuse a willingness to perform on the Internet with confidence or talent.)

That all boils down to "So what?" Being apprehensive is self-imposed. It can be a struggle, but you might have to stop and turn around right in fear's face and say, "Hey! Yeah, talkin' to YOU! Quit following me around, I've got things to do. Make yourself useful. Pour some coffee. Tell me your story."

My suggestion, Beth, is to go on down to the Critiques area, find one of those posted images that invites you to say something about it, and say it. If you hemorrhage words like I do, it might take an hour, but plenty of good advice has been dispensed on the Forum in 10-minute increments.

Just sign on and say it. That, in a nutshell, is the story behind every single one of those critiques.

I've been watching instructional videos by artists I admire... Scott Burdick, Morgan Weistling, Burton Silverman, and David Leffel.

The one thing that I've learned is that nobody is "right" about art. It seems that if these four artists got together to discuss how to paint a picture, a fight would surely break out, and it wouldn't be pretty. The sage advice on one video is completely negated on the next. Still, there's no denying they all know what they're talking about. I totally enjoy seeing different approaches, and philosophies.

My point is: if you're creating successful paintings, your input is valuable to those of us who aren't. At the same time, I feel many of us whose skills are still a bit coarse may also have valuable advice to offer, since I feel I have a good understanding of many of the concepts that I don't yet have the skill to execute. I know it when I see it, but I can't do it myself (yet).

So Beth, you are a person who has recently had a lot of those "aha" moments, and whose progress indicates that you've got a good grasp of the concepts that some of us are still struggling with. As a new professional, you still remember going through the learning process, and may be better able to translate it. (I've come to the conclusion that painting is easy, but learning to paint is very difficult).

I'm not embarrassed to say that I love teaching art. Were my career as a painter to suddenly (please) go off the charts, I would make time to teach. It's an integral part of the process. Continuing Ed or BFA, I enjoy them equally, though not always for the same reasons.

A forum, however, is different. If I have a class, and a student shows me a piece that makes me cringe in horror, and then asks me for a critique of that piece, I must grit my teeth and go in as honestly and as deftly as possible. It takes a while to get this combination just right. Of course, it is my job to do this. But, if I open a forum thread and see something truly horrific, I will choose not to even try, for 2 reasons:

1- Communicating on the web is so very different than reality that it is very easy for things to be taken the wrong way, out of context, etc. If a work is especially bad, the odds are stacked that things will go awry. 2 - Resultant of this, it is best not to try, and therefore makes my life and the poster's life easier. For if the poster is ignored , they will get the message much more clearly than if any wordsmith were to comment with sage advice. And that message would be, "You need much more experience with basic stuff before posting, but I think you already know that."

Of course, a lack of response might simply mean people were busy, or some other new work got stacked up on top of it on the Forum index and it just got buried.

I've found many great paintings I somehow managed to overlook on the Forum that I finally stumbled on and commented about months later. I'm sure there are some out there that I have never seen, even though I'm on this site on average once a day or more.

Steven,

This is a big day for you, because you haven't misunderstood me on either of your post - HA! I got the yin and the yang out of you today.

I was talking about my own apprehension, but figured I couldn't be the only one that felt that way, so I wanted to de-personalize it so others might say how they feel too!

I love how you write by-the-way! Sorry to make you do so much of it today! ;)

I can't wait to come back and read these tonight!

I love these thoughtful responses, Beth. Good topic!

I've felt the same way you do, and I've also popped off and said something that I've later regretted. Now I try to take my time, if I have the time, and give a careful response. Unfortunately, I frequently have little time to give, so add something briefly, to the point, but I always try to give a positive to start out with. Human nature being the way it is, plus our fragile artist's ego, we need to hear what we did right before being able to hear what is needed to improve.

If a person is willing to put their work up for critique, we have to assume that they want truthful feedback, not just praise. I learn more from a critique that tells me where I fell short than on any number of "attagirls".

Not giving a critique because of feeling inadequate may rob the seeking artist of some bit of information he or she could have used to truly grow.

Jeff's observation is well-taken, about the four artists in fisticuffs over who's "right." I was watching one of Gregg Kreutz' DVDs last night and when he mentioned the [Name deleted to avoid fisticuffs] medium he uses, I had to smile to myself and say, ha!, I'm glad [Name deleted to avoid lawsuits] isn't watching this. Same with the binder in your oil paints, the number and size of brushes, the rodent the bristles were plucked from, this pigment 100% good, that one 100% bad, the music you're playing in the background, and the horse you rode in on.

I've come to think more than a little of all of it has to do with one of two conditions: (1) not nearly enough fiber in the diet, or (2) way too much.

By the same token, I know that there are posted images that I've tried to get going in the right direction with a few suggestions, knowing full well that there are others out there, usually with much more experience than I have, whose suggestion might be, "Throw it away, you should never have started this," or "I've already seen this kind of thing so many times, I don't know why you're doing another one." Now I might try to head someone off at the pass if they're showing us an unsuitable photo reference, but once somebody has a piece under way, I feel my subjective preferences are quite beside the point. They want to finish the painting and have it turn out as well as possible. That's not so much to ask -- unless you ask all four of those [Unnamed] artists.

I had a plein air instructor in Australia once, who wouldn't let somebody just give up on a piece that wasn't working. "We aren't here to start over," she'd say. "We're here to fix what's on the canvas."

That's a good enough reason to drop by and say, "Try softening the edges over there," or "Think about how these shapes interrelate." Or to paraphrase Gregg Kreutz, "You're getting sucked into the middle-tone vortex."

I'm going to hang onto that last one. I think there's a critique out there just waiting for it, and I figure I'm the guy.

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Swear on a stack of unfinished sudoku puzzles, this is my last post in this thread, but I have to say this:

Don't get sucked into a different kind of vortex, the one where you post a critique -- with the expectation of getting feedback on your critique! (Feel familiar to anyone?) Just don't. A critique is an opinion, perhaps a considered one or perhaps just the consequence of indigestion, but it's just an opinion. Put it out there, and let loose of it. It doesn't matter if the artist whose work is being reviewed agrees with you or appreciates the insight. It doesn't matter if another Forum member comes along and disagrees with you, suggesting a different procedure or solution (that is, having the audacity to express his or her own opinion).

As the inimitable Bill Murray reminded us in that inestimable summer-camp send-up, "Meatballs," --

It Just Doesn't Matter!

Focus on the work.

Now, a cease and desist order has just been faxed to my cubicle . . .

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My thoughts exactly. That's why I haven't been posting for critiques lately. I'm struggling to learn to paint, and I can readily see what I'm doing wrong. Second opinions wouldn't be helpful to me at this point, since my problem is a lack of experience with the medium. After I make a few hundred attempts, I'll be ready for opinions.

At this point, my work would produce those cringes you mentioned.

When I see the cringe pieces, I usually assume that the artist lacks experience, and I shy away from critiques, because what they really need is to keep drawing and painting. There's not much point lecturing someone on color temperature when they can't draw a head.

I didn't know you could get these any other way! :sunnysmil

I think I might spend some more time just reading through recent critiques and see what people are saying.

Elizabeth, the words in your first post could have been written by me! I have gained so much from this forum the six or so years I've been reading it that I want to be able to give back to it, but right now my disposable time is at a premium. Someday, when I finish school and get moved back home I will try to invest more time into it. I have a feeling this place will become a life line for me once I get back to the wilds of coastal Washington and start going through atelier withdrawls.