Do you size Masonite?
 

I've been using Masonite panels for awhile now, especially for quick stuff and the not-so-important. I've always used the smooth side, which I rough up with course sandpaper, and then apply gesso. It usually take two -- sometimes, three -- coats to get it sifficiently isolated from the fiber panel.

I recently decided to try using the rough, dimpled side of the Masonite panel, and was surprised at how much gesso this side of the panel drinks, and continues to drink.

I got to wondering if it would be wise to size the rough side before putting on the gesso. I used to keep some animal glue, but lost it, or threw it out several years ago. Don't want to buy a big batch for a small experiment. I'm not sure I'll want to paint on the rough side, anyway.

I was wondering if something like dilute Elmer's Glue would work as a size for the rough side of Masonite.

Any ideas?

I must admit masonite makes me nervous, but I still use it occasionally as well. I'm surprised that sanding the masonite first doesn't cause you more problems. I had someone help me cut a bunch of little boards from an 4' by 8' tempered sheet from the lumber yard once. The saw blade we used was not fine enough or something, and we ripped up some of the edges. I just sanded those down a little, and they looked fine...until I gessoed them. Then these brown stains leaked up through the gesso everywhere I'd had a rough edge. Multiple coats did not help.

When I gesso, I never sand the masonite. I just use a paint roller or sometimes a really fine sponge to apply gesso. That usually provides plenty of texture for me. I still have to apply two or three coats to really cover up the dark surface.

Jen:

Those pesky brown stains may have come from the tempered masonite. As I understand it, there is UNtempered masonite, and tempered masonite. I read that the difference was that tempered masonite was made with oil and a lot of heat, the reason being that it was for use out of doors. The untempered masonite, the article said, was made without the oil, and was for use indoors where the elements (rain, snow, I suppose) would not affect it.

Later, I learned from my son, a carpenter, that the difference is not oil, but this: tempered masonite is made with extra water and a lot of heat and pressure. Untempered is made with water, also, but no heat or so much pressure.

Now that I've really confused the issue, I can't tell you which is correct, either.

But, if you used tempered, which, supposedly, is made with more water and heat, those stains could be from leaching out some of that stuff that was"made" from the heat and water. Whew! Who knows.

I have never had this brown stain problem with my untempered masonite. However, where I do get leaching is if I use a felt tipped pen to mark the masonite, and if I forget and use it on the side I'm going to paint. When I start the gesso, it continues to leach up through the layers of masonite.

Unless someone can tell me more, I'm going to go back to using the smooth side because it seems to be sealed tighter. The rough side acts like a sponge. Even after three or so coats of gesso, and fairly thick ones, too, it still sucks up the new layers of gesso.

By the way, you can make some interesting textures on your masonite panely bu applying the gesso with various things like a small whisk broom, or a wallpaper paste brush.

I don't post here much (more to read than I can cover) but anyway....

First, I think they don't make Masonite any more--that's a brand name--but there are several companies that make compressed hardboard that is similar to it. Unfortunately, there seems to be a very wide variation in how hard the hardboard actually is.

Next, it's not clear to me if you're using traditional gesso or acrylic primer that's sold under that name. My guess is you're using the acrylic stuff. Real gesso is made with whiting and glue (traditionally rabbit skin glue or today sometimes other kinds) and is often made by mixing various proportions of the powdered ingredients in water. Acrylic "gesso" is dilutable in water, too, of course, and in my experience, the water soaks into the hardboard and will bring up the brown stains you've seen. On the other hand, real gesso hasn't done that for me, probably because of the glue. Some experts recommend that you give the panel a drink of diluted glue solution before applying traditional gesso. I'd guess that's why traditional gesso doesn't bring up the brown stains.

Sanding the smooth side of the hardboard is actually a good idea when priming it because it increases the mechanical bonding of the primer to the wood--I use 120 grit paper. It doesn't require a great deal of sanding, btw--barely enough to rough up the surface. You don't have to do it, but when using traditional gesso, sanding is a good idea. Most who prepare their own gessoed panels sand between coats as well, and may apply as many as six coats (usually at least three).

I don't know if this is helpful or not, so if not, then "never mind."

Oh, and if you don't want to go to the trouble of doing it yourself, you can get some lovely prepared panels from http://www.realgesso.com/

Thanks, Gary! Nobody ever explained the difference between real gesso and the acrylic primer. Of course, I've had a salesman at a supply store strongly recommend Golden's over the cheaper generic brand, but he failed to tell me exactly why it was so much better...and more expensive. Perhaps he didn't really know himself.

And you're right about Masonite. It's simply called hardboard now. I called three lumber yards, none of them carried "Masonite." But at least one customer service guy knew what I needed!

You're very welcome.

Yes I'm afraid that a great many art store employees know more about how to run the cash register than they do about the materials they sell. If you'd like to try traditional gesso, you can order some pretty inexpensively from Studio Products at www.studioproducts.com

Gary:

Sorry . . . I use "gesso" without defining which one. I use the acrylic version since it is easier (IMHO) to deal with. Little or now mixing, etc.

In my recent "trail," I've been using straight out of the tub, thick and gooey, and that infernal hardboard (the rough side) just keeps slurping it down. Not going to do that anymore.

I have used the Acrylic Gesso for some canvases. After sizeing with Animal glue (bone ) 2 times and a light sanding I gessoed 2 times. When I use such a canvas I like to oil it over from the start.

You can use Animal Skin Glue, Acrylic binder or even Linseed Oil with White spirit if you let it dry well before gessoing on Masonite. I never use the rough side.

The Acrylic Gesso is best for canvas because of the flexibility of Acrylic binder. If you prefer traditional Gesso be sure to make it an Oil, Egg and Glue Gesso.

Allan

That is an excellent idea! I find that gesso on any board is quite thirsty. Oiling out before painting is a fantastic solution to that problem.

On another note, I like to use MDF instead of masonite (hardboard). You won't have the problem with those fine fibers on the sides (where the board was cut) soaking up moisture. That problem is much like getting window cleaner under a glass tabletop. It's impossible to eliminate. With MDF, the composite is consistent throughout and fairly stable. It weighs a bit more but is available in 1/4" thickness which isn't too bad.

I know that doesn't exactly fit the original question but it's a thought to consider.

A while ago, I had a long talk with Micheal Harding the English paint maker. He said MDF board was the most stable paint surface available. It really does not need any sizing, just paint on it. I use it for my large pastels. Just give it a light sanding to make the paint adhere better.

No gesso, no nothing. Simple and archival.

It is important to cut the board from the right side to avoid loose fibers on the front side.
The side that is to be the front have to be upside when cutting it with a handheld saw so that the teeth will cut from the front and only rip up the fibers on the backside.
If you cut with a handheld circular saw it must be cut from the back of cause.

Allan

Yes, Allan, thanks. I forgot to mention that. Also a sharp blade is important. Dropping the stuff means you can kiss it goodbye as well.


Sharon, is that true?! That is fantastic news. No problem with oils? I am shocked an amazed. I can't wait to try it! I have tons of it on hand from a local specialty hardwood store. They love it for cabinet making. I abhor priming surfaces with gesso. It reminds me of painting rooms which I also avoid at all costs. :)

Thanks for the hot tip!

Sharon,
I guess that you mean, no gesso when used for pastels ?

When used for oil I would prefer a light painted ground of some kind. If it should be gesso or simply oil paint depends on the grade of absorbency you prefer.

Allan

Lisa,

The same stuff, just make sure it is MDF, not MDO. It is great stuff.

Actually, I left out a minor step, you do have to size it with rabbit skin glue, something you can cook on top of your stove. Ralph Mayer's book has the method.

That is right, NO GESSO for oils! The man is a wealth of information, I spent 2 1/2 hours with him on the phone,

You have to gesso for pastel because you need the grit.

Mr. Harding says it is one of the best and most stable supports around. Much better than any wood panel on the market and way better than canvas.

My cabinet maker suggest having it cradled in thicker widths of MDF, but you can use oak which is quite strong.

Allan, if you want want a lighter background, just use white paint over the glue.

Cheap, archival and easy.

Sharon, do you know why it has to be sized? Jus curious.

Lisa,

After 2 1/2 hours on the phone with him, my head was buzzing, and I did not ask.

Two reasons I suspect.

1) The acid from the oils would not be able to react with the substrate
2)The oils would not be easily absorbed by the MDF so would not look dead and dry.

I am only using MDF panels now to paint on. A carpenter makes them for me with cradled backs, then I rough up the surface and apply three layers of gesso, sanding in between coats. Then I tone it and I'm good to go. I love these panels, no bouncing when I paint and such a silky surface to work on. Next I'll be gluing linen on them and I think I'll really love that surface to paint on.

I haven't tried painting on them without gesso, maybe I'll try that next. It just doesn't seem right. :bewildere

Jean

This is great news for me! I have a source of free mdf panels of various sizes.
As long as rabbit skin glue does not involve boiling any rabbits I will give it a go and see how this support works for me.
I don't know what "cradling" means but I suspect there's a post about it somewhere on this forum.
Thanks for the info, Sharon!

I wouldn't recommend doing that when using oils. Any natural fiber support be it MDF, Masonite, linen, or cotton will eventually suffer deterioration from the acids present in oil paint. The rule of thumb when using natural fiber supports is to size them with either a hide glue or acrylic emulsion.

Ooops! I missed post #14 :o

Max,

It was a LONG conversation, and I was writing from memory, a bad choice on my part. I remembered the sizing part, to my horror, only when my head hit the pillow.

Some artists like the luminosity of a gesso surface, some a naturally toned surface, but Max you are right, BOTH HAVE TO BE SIZED.

Hi Brenda,

This should take you to a discussion of cradling with a photo:

http://forum.portraitartist.com/showthread.php?t=5720

I forgot to finish that thread, Guerilla Glue is the the winner. It will hold forever.

Jean

I have read that oil paint gets more transparent over time, so if we don

Thanks, Jean for the link to that thread. I'll check it out...as long as it doesn't involve boiling any guerillas...

I had to look up MDF because I'd never heard of it. As appropriate as it may seem to an artist's forum, I rejected the "Manic Depression Fellowship" definition.

But according to the link below, Medium Density Fiberboard seems as dicey as other hardboard products. It mentions a continual gas-out of formaldehyde!

http://www.design-technology.org/mdf.htm

[QUOTE=Jen Reinstadler] I would say even more dicey. It absorbs water like a sponge, and is not nearly as durable as tempered hardboard. MDF uses resins which do in most cases contain formalehyde, whereas quality hardboard relies on the lignen present in the wood for adhesion.

This may be of interest to some.
http://www.true-gesso-panels.com/2003_stp_article.htm

Mr. Harding is a well respected maker of oil paints. I do not think he would suggest using MDF board if he did not consider it stable. His answer came as the result of my query as to what he thought was the most stable surface to work on today. I was decrying thje lack of properly prepared lead canvas on the market. He had no reason monetary or otherwise to suggest it to me other than he thought it was the most archival.

Here is another point of view on the subject: http://www.hudsonhighland.com/hardboardMDF.htm

Hi, folks.


Since I started this thread, I thought I'd two more cents wortth.

First, it gladdens me that some "biggies" think "masonite" is okay to paint on. I realize other don't think so, and that's okay, too.

I got started using this kind of thing because I paint every day of the week, and I turn out a lot of stuff -- literally. Much of it is just that -- STUFF. I do lots of projects to try out this or that idea. Not always something I think will hang in a museum someday. So, I reason, why spend so much for canvas when I can find out it the "idea" is sound on a cheap surface.

My question about sizing concerns using the "rough" side of the panel. I've always felt that I should sand, or roughen the smooth side, which is the side on which I normally paint. I got to thinking that if I gessoed the back side, I'd have some built in texture. But, when I started putting on the gesso, the board drank like a thirsty sailor home on leave. Yikes. So, the thought occurred to me that perhaps I could cut off the board's thirst by sizing with rabbit sking glue before applying gesso.

However, I've been happy to learn all this other stuff, too.

I just read in the technical section of the current issue (November/Decenber I believe) of American Artist Magazine that IF you're using acrylic gesso, there is no need to size at all. In fact, the article seems to warn against it.

Further, I can tell you that it does not seem to lessen the absorption rate/problem with masonite-like boards. I've now tried it both ways, and it takes as much acrylic gesso with, or without sizing, which, to my mind, makes sizing just another step that is unnecessary in the first place.

Applied Linen to Board
 

This thread has been a wealth of information for a portrait mural I am planning. I would happily purchase pre-mounted linen found on one of the links mentioned if it were not for the fact that the wall is actually a niche with a curved top and the board will have to be shaped accordingly. So here are four questions for this learned forum:

1.) Any suggestions on how best to mount and linen on hardboard? I will need to wrap the edges over as well.

2.) Has anyone ever painted on a stretched linen then mounted it on board? I will miss the spring back into my brushes if I painted on the mounted surface.

3.) Cradles are not advisable for this application as I'd like to keep it as thin as possible. How serious an issue is warping on a board 24" x 18?"

4.) Wallpaper hangers can attach linen murals to walls using a liner they claim is removable (another valuable feature I would like to attain). I prefer the linen on board approach and wonder, "Would the old master muralist have considered using Velcro as a means of attaching to the wall?"

Replies are much appreciated.
Jeanine