Giclees for other family members
 

As we know, an original portrait is a one of a kind thing. I'm curious whether the experienced artists here think that your clients would be interested in modestly priced, high quality giclee reproductions of the portrait for giving to relatives, such as grandparents. And, would this be something you might be interested in offering if you made a little off of it also?

I have done this for two clients to date...the giclees have been well received, although the set up cost can be high for the client who only wants one or two. I feel at this point that I would do this for pastel clients, but not for oil...the pastel reproduction are so incredible you really have to touch the surface to see if it will rub off...to date the oil giclees just don't seem to carry the patina, or whatever the subtleties are that make original oils what they are.

I have a couple of matted/framed pastel gicless that I use for display (and don't worry about handling, loss,damage, etc)...they really convey exactly what someone can expect from an original pastel.

Chris

If you're talking about a loving grandparent who is dying to have a copy of an oil, do you think they would really quibble over lack of patina?

What did you find were the setup costs? And, what did you pay for the giclees yourself. I assume you marked them up.

My 3rd career (I'm on my 4th) was selling printing and graphics. I was discussing this subject tonight over dinner with the company where I used to work. The owner happens to be an artist himself and so has a quite comprehensive setup. We discussed the idea of me offering this service to my SOG artists. I would require tests to be run to demonstrate they had "the right stuff", of course.

If my memory serves me, I think I paid about $150-175 for the set up (basically involves a high quality scanning of a 4x5 transparency --which you need to already have, can run $40 and up---and tweaking the image on Adobe Photoshop) and the actual printing which here runs between 19-23 cents per square inch....

So without prorating, the first 16 x 20 print might run about $285 and every subsequent print, about $67. Of course the big advantage is that you can order them one at a time, without any quantity penalty.

I haven't done this enough to get exorcised about profitablilty, but I have heard "industry quotes" as marking up the cost 3 times. One thing I consider important though in considering whether to do giclee (and here I am speaking more of inventory...figurative, still life landscape, etc) that the artist's originals need in sufficient demand and at a price level to support the giclee as a good value. I have often seen a five- or tenfold difference between giclees and originals (someone like Steve Hanks for example). But if your originals are selling for $600 and your giclees for $300, well I don't think that is enough. Beyond these considerations, moving from the creation and sale of originals to the reproduction market is as different as night and day...presentation being no small obstacle, ie framing and inventory to start with...

Personally I would rather have a miniature original than a big giclee. Fortunately for the print industry, I'm in the minority.

Chris

The setup charge you mentioned is similar to what I found. You see, if someone pays $5,000+ for a portrait, it wouldn't seem that $300-400 for a giclee reproduction for a grandparent is prohibitive at all. My thought is that the cost would be over and above the price of the portrait, not included in it.

Another option is a quality photograph. When I painted a judge once, the committee that hired me wanted to present his wife with an image of the painting. We hired a professional photographer and had a photo taken of the painting and a subsequent 11x14 (approx) photo produced on the "canvas finish" paper that photographers promote. We then framed it in a quality frame that was a more narrow version on the oil's frame. Because of the finish on the paper, glass was not needed so it gave a mini-oil illusion. The original painting had been 24x30.

The photographer gave me professional consideration in the pricing, so the resulting photo cost me less then $100 plus the frame. With some mark-up, I was able to make a little additional on the photo. Although it was not officially a "print", it was a quality looking reproduction of the painting and the wife was very happy with it. A solution for relatives that I will consider doing again.

Mary Reilly

Thanks Mary. The thing with a giclee is the size of the original portrait can be matched. It's a service I thought about offering SOG artists, so this is the reason for my post. At some point I'll send out an email to everyone to determine interest since there aren't really that many of the SOG artists active in the Forum.

I'm interested in hearing more about giclees.

Karin,

This will have to wait until the shows are over. I'm investigating giclees for two purposes. One already mentioned and secondly for reproductions (8x10) for marketing purposes.

The printer where I used to work is an artist himself, albeit an abstract artist. Consequently, he understands the nature of all this very well. For portrait sheets used for marketing, we've discussed setting up a system whereby an artist would send in 35mm or 4x5 transparencies. Proofs would then be created and approved by the artist. The settings would be stored permanently so that from that point on, there would be consistency in the reproduction. As I understand, there's no problem with paper changes. I know with photo reproductions, you can work and work to get the right color balance and as soon as they change the paper, the emulsion changes and you have to rebalance all over again.

Anyway, if this gets off the ground (reasonable cost is an issue), we would set up a system whereby the artist could simply fax in an order for more of a particular portrait and have quality, consistent reproductions. There would be an initial setup cost, but I think this could be saved in the long run if the artist is spending a lot of time getting color balance correct on photos.

I spoke with Gordon Wetmore about it and I know he's interested in finding out more.

I have some still lifes that I would love to reproduce (giclees) for sale. I've had inquiries from people who want less expensive copies as my originals are expensive.

I don't have much time to concentrate on still life painting nowadays.

What do you have to reproduce from? 4x5 transparencies or 35mm? Perhaps you could be our test case on one of them. I want him to prove himself before I make any commitment for general promotion to my clients.

Mostly I have 35mm slides.

But there is one that won an award and the museum owns a 4x5 but won't let me have it. I wonder if they would allow a detailed scan of their transp. on a CD Rom. Would this help? The painting sold long ago.

This is the one that I want. I could have sold this painting at least 10 times already!

Can someone tell me how to pronounce the word "giclee" ? In French it would be pronounced "zhee-klay" but is that how people say it in America?

- Michele

Michele,

I always hear gee-clay.

I once saw an artist who had giclee prints made. He then went over the highlights of some of the colors with oil paints. The results were beautiful. Those highlights seemed to breath life into the print. I think he said that he got the idea from the Thomas Kincade gallery. It seems that the prints in these stores are done in the same way. Mr. Kincade has a staff of artists who apply the highlights for him.

Has anyone else ever heard of this?

Rebecca

Giclees for other family members
 

I have a client who's wife passed away. I've discussed the possiblities of Giclees for family members and he will probably be going with it.

I just finished a commission for a client whose wife passed away, also. He wanted something to give to his three daughters. Our solution was to have me paint three virtually identical portraits. (Nice way for me to get additional work and each daughter now has an original painting.)

I nailed three canvases together side by side, put them on my easel and painted them all at the same time (forehead, forehead, forehead, eyebrow, eyebrow, eyebrow). It was a strange way to work but the paintings all turned out great, and everybody's happy.

The cost of the gicl

I'm bumping this old thread up rather than post a new one -

I wonder how many of you make prints for family members? If you do, do you make a profit off the prints, or do you do it as a service to your client?

Do you think it devalues the original portrait to have prints hanging in other people's homes, or does it enhance the value for the owner of the original?

Finally - if you do prints - what method do you use? Your own printer, giclee prints, etc?

Thanks in advance for your input...

Cindy

An enhanced giclee is probably what should be produced as they can almost be indistinguishable from an original if done right.

1) Get the very best reproduction of the original that you can get. Scanning through a professional scanner is best or alternatively by a very high quality, high mega-pixel digital camera (>10MB).

2) Put image into photoshop and eliminate any artifacts, blooms, etc.. One can also adjust color and value contrast at the same time if necessary .

3) Output giclee on the highest dpi, professional printer you can access using high quality, fine weave artist canvas.

4) Use a regular or heavy bodied acrylic gel medium to carefully put in simulated brush strokes. Try to emulate the brush strokes you used in creating the original painting. Use the regular gel medium to minimize the indication of brush strokes and heavy body gel medium to enhance brush strokes. Note: Some artists paint in a style that produces a very smooth surface. If so this step can be skipped. However, the indication of brush stokes is what makes a fool the eye reproduction.

5) Varnish using a polymer varnish with UVLS (ultraviolet filters and light stabilizers)

If done with care, I defy anyone except a professional to determine if the resulting enhanced giclee is anything but an original.

Enhanced giclees usually sell anywhere from $400 to $2000 depending upon the quality of the original and size of the giclee.

Hopes this helps all interested parties.

Thanks, Richard, for your response.

I'm really asking more about the concept of prints of your original portrait in general. Where does one draw the line? Yes - you can make 4 prints - to give to the grandparents? You can make 20 prints and hand them out as party favors at your next barbeque? You can make 300 prints and give them to your extended family at your next reunion?

Obviously, if the artist is going to allow print production, they should be in charge of the process for quality control purposes. But, if you're making prints - are you selling them at a profit, or giving them to your client at cost as a service to them?

Cindy,
Sorry I didn't answer the question you asked. Here is my more responsive answer to your question.

1) An artist is in business to make a profit. Therefore reproductions need to have an adequate markup to not only cover the artists valuable time but also a reasonable profit. If we give away giclees, we are making a gift which takes money out of our pocket.

2) As I understand copyright laws in the US, reproduction runs greater than 150 lose copyright protection. That is a no no, especially if the art in question becomes popular.

Hope this is a better response.

I and others I know have had incredibly good results from www.finerworks.com in Texas. They will do single prints on high-quality art/watercolor paper at a very reasonable price, and will drop ship if you want. For example, one 16x20 print costs $28.20. Were one to go as large as, say, 24x36, the cost would be about $78.00 per print. There is a turnaround time of about 4-5 days. They will also print on canvas, and will stretch it if one wants, also very reasonably. There's no set-up cost. You need to have a high-res digital photo to upload, which you would correct in Photoshop. Obviously, the better the uploaded image the better the prints. The prints I've got from them are as good as any I've seen.

I think this may be the answer to the question about creating good quality copies of portraits to give to family and friends.

John C.

I have always kept this possibility (of duplicate giclees for family members) in mind.

With a proper markup on pricing, it certainly is an option if a family can't afford to commission two originals. It can even bring in a little extra profit for the artist, if priced correctly for the time involved plus markup.

Plus, once it is scanned, reproductions can be made at relatively low cost for the artist to use as demos for his or her own walls. And possibly prints for the portfolio, although the cost may not justify it.

Cindy,
I've done some giclee prints on canvas of oils that I've painted. In the past, I've done off-set lithos on paper and also photo reproductions. I like the giclee on canvas so much better, and welcome this newer technology. I think for a portrait, giclees on canvas are an excellent answer for customers wanting copies for grandparents etc.

I stretch the canvas prints and frame them the same as oils and they look great. However, I make the prints slightly smaller then the original. The quality of the prints are so good, that I think it is important to keep something special about the original and for me size is the answer. An inch smaller all around reduces it enough to maintain the specialness of the original. Several inches smaller can make an "intimate reproduction" that is also worth considering.

I agree with the others that there should be a mark up. You can always come up with a couple different size and price possibilites. There doesn't have to be a big markup, but your time in getting them made is worth something plus some profit. The customer has the option not to order the prints if they aren't happy with the prices.

The company that I used has a set price for a sheet size of 35"x47". The price per print depends on how many prints you can fit on the sheet. Naturally, the smaller the print, the more prints per sheet. Their website is http://www.oldtowneditions.com/. In addition to being pleased with their quality, I found them very easy to work with.

Mary

Thanks for everyone's thoughtful replies.

The reason I ask is because a client asked about giclees even before the photo shoot. When I went over to take pictures (and sign contracts), I brought up the giclees. I told her I think it would be alright if we did that.

She replied - oh good - my brother does giclees.
:!

Obviously, she's going to make a family deal with her brother - and both the quality of the reproduction and any profit to be had is out of my control.


What do I do NOW?

The response should be, " Sorry I already have an EXCLUSIVE contract for the reproduction of all my giclees." That would be the truth as the contract is with yourself to never lose control of your product.

Just think how many unauthorized reproductions might be made by big brother for cousin Sally and any other number of relatives or friends and you see why this deal is a no go.

This is a bit of a dilemma. I like Richards reply that you have an exclusive contract for reproductions. However, if you are not comfortable with that, then another possibility is to say that before he can reproduce you need to see the quality of what he does and also have control over the finished product. Afterall, he could do giclees that don't look very good and it would reflect on you. Since you own the copyright of your own work you can call the shots. You could require that he provide you with a proof and only after you sign off on the proof can he go forward with the printing. Also you have a right to reimbursment of the use of your image. So the client should pay you a specific amount for a one time use of the image for x -number of prints with no future printing permitted unless they contact you first. That way you are selling a limited use of the copyright and not signing away the whole thing. Also it should definitely be in writing. The customer needs to know that eventhough they own the painting, you retain the copyright.

Do let us know how the whole thing winds up.

Mary

This is great advice - thanks so much to both of you.

I like the idea of putting it in writing - limited edition, I sign off on the artist's proof.

Thanks.

Make sure your contract puts in writing that you own the copyright. It would be a good idea to spell everything about these giclees in writing.

Cindy,
I agree, everything needs to be spelled out very specifically. I put the following statement in the agreements that I have customers sign prior to starting, and then again on a handout that I give them about the painting after it has been completed.

"Purchase of this painting does not include purchase of the copyright. The artist retains all copyright unless stated otherwise in writing with the artist signature."

Even if you decide not to charge for copyright usage, you should still control the situation regarding the proof, how many prints etc. Sometimes a customer is excellent and you know there will be future commissions etc. In a case like that you if you decide not to charge them, you might fill out the copyright release form and details, restrictions, state the price, but put "no charge" at the bottom. That way they know what they would have been charged but you are nice enough to not charge them. :) It is also clear to them that eventhough there is no charge, there are still restrictions and in the future there might be a charge.

By the way, I looked at your website and really like your portraits.

Mary

Thanks, Mary, for the compliment.

I have wording in my contract that states I own the copyright. That's already signed, so I need to do a separate one for the giclees.

Thanks again, everyone. I appreciate the valuable advice.

Jumping in late on this one, I make a practice of offering gicl

Ok, now I'm in this situation. I have a client who is spending $10k+ on a portrait. He wants to buy 4 to 5 giclees to begin with of the portrait to spread around to various homes, offices, and relatives. He also wants the option of calling up and ordering giclees from time to time. He described some giclees he's seen in galleries that have paint on them. I'm assuming he saw giclees on canvas with clear acrylic gel, but perhaps he saw something similar to the Kinkades described above. Anyway, I don't have any experience selling giclees. Any thoughts from anyone about what to charge? Have you sold giclees of your portraits? What did you charge? I suppose I'm going to have to do some brush work on them either with clear acrylic gel or oil paint.

thanks much,
Steve

I'd think an artist would want to charge a pretty solid price to avoid diminishing the perceived value of their work.

Also, if you haven't done it before, trying to get giclees made with excellent color fidelity is a very time consuming (and sometimes impossible!) process. Whenever I've done it for myself (to make sample copies of my commissioned work that I then show locally) I've spent hours with the color guy at my local giclee place tweaking things before getting something satisfactory.

Aside from your time there are also several costs involved: getting a very high res digital scan of the original, doing the color correcting and creating test prints, the giclee print itself (which I've had printed on canvas), stretcher bars and then framing.

I can't suggest a specific price but I hope this gives you some things to think about, anyway. I'd be very interested in hearing how you decide to proceed.

Steve, just because someone has seen enhanced gicl

Steve,

I have a contract with a firm that markets my giclees nationwide. Here is the pricing schedule from that contract. It is standard for all of the artiists represented by that company. Use it as a guide. Hopefully it will help all forum artists selling giclees.

Enhanced giclees can sell for 30% to 100% more than shown below. (See my post on enhanceing giclees earlier in this thread.)

Retail Pricing to be determined by formula as follows:

Canvas Price Formula
Up to 300 sq in - $2.40/sq in (round to next $10)
301 to 500 sq in - $2.00/sq in (round to next $10)
Over 500 sq in - $1.6/sq in (round to next $10)

Paper Price Formula
Up to 1000 sq in - $54/sq in (round to next $10)
Over 1000 sq in - $50/sq in (round to next $10)


WHOLESALE PRICE IS 50% OF RETAIL PRICE OR ACTUAL WHOLESALES PRICE WHICHEVER IS HIGHER.


Wholesale Prices may be adjusted by discounts as follows:

Order $ Total at Wholesale Additional Discount on Wholesale Order
$3,001 to $7,500 20%
Over $7,500 30%

So Richard, according to the company that sells your giclees, a 24x30 giclee on canvas would sell for $1150? (30x24=720x$1.60=$1152) Is that framed? And an "enhanced" giclee would then sell for $1500?

I don't understand why there is such a great difference between the canvas and paper prices:

Is the "$54/sq in" a typo? If not, can you please explain?