Pastels - out of business?
 

I have pretty much decided to discontinue offering full color pastels. Here are some of my random thoughts on the subject. Sorry for the lack of organization, but I think you can get my drift.

* Although you can price your goods however you wish, there is a perception that pastels cost less. If all you offer is pastel then it becomes much less complicated, but when you price oil, pastel and mono drawings, I find it more difficult.

* For me, pastels are not less difficult than oil. In fact I find them to be at least as time consuming and much less forgiving.

* I thought the answer might be to raise my prices equal to oil. What that causes for me is more anxiety. If my price for pastel is the same as oil then I feel that I should be able to produce an equally quality product. Without the constant practice I don

MIke,

Like you I have virtually phased out of pastels. Once I raised my pastel prices to be the same as oil, about 2 yrs ago, the only pastel order I have had was for the last of three siblings, two of whose portraits I had done in pastel in past years.

I don't generally have any difficulty talking people into oil, even if a prior sibling is one I had done in pastel. I suppose I'll leave the pastels as an available option, I'm not sure why, except that there may be clients who won't even call if they feel they have their hearts set on pastel.

Chris,

Do you share my belief that pastels are at least as difficult as oils and are much less forgiving.

I know that each medium heads toward the same goal and with the same results in mind. We use edges, color, blah, blah to reach the same conclusions, but after that, they are so completely different. It's like comparing the skills needed to fly a plane compared to those needed to sail a ship. Each may have the same destination in mind, but that's about it. I know some people's circumstance and capacity may be such that they can excel at both, but for me I think I'm going to drop this one off.

To quote Michael Carleone - "It's just business Sonny, it's not personal."

Well, kind of.

I think pastels are (for me) easier, at least in the way that I do them. However, there is no way I can manage the medium and do what I want to be working on in my portraits - more subtlety and control in color and value transitions, etc. So if I tried to work on subtlety (and as you know subtlety is just not my long suit in any regard) in pastel I would be frustrated, and just unable to accomplish it.

I think oil is wonderfully versatile and forgiving, and that's where I want to be.

I understand completely.

Also, It is my impression that the prices of oils and pastels only begin to merge at the very highest levels.

For the same reasons you cite for pastels. I have really de-emphasized offering work done in watercolor. I haven't done a watercolor in almost a year.

So Mike have you convinced yourself yet? ;)

I was already convinced, I just wondered if others had come to similar conclusions.

I only offer portraits in oils, for all the same reasons you mention, Mike.

I don't mind the charcoal or mono pastel drawings. This gives people an opportunity to do something if they can't afford the oil. But when you introduce color, that's a whole nuther smoke.

Gee, thanks for totally depressing me.

I struggle very hard with this. I charge basically half for pastels what I charge for oils for the reasons Mike mentions. I just feel like I am supposed to. Painting portraits is my opportunity to stay at home with my children and not have to get a job. So I have to keep it coming in and by having something lower in price to offer there is something always there to do.

However, this is very frustrating to me. I feel like pastel comes easier to me but at the same time takes me just as long to complete as one in oil would. So perhaps it isn't really easier, maybe I just enjoy it more. So, this is a fight I have been having with myself for this past year that I have been offering these pastels. I spend the same amount of time making half the money, but because there is something offered at such a lower price I never have nothing to do, and I HAVE to have something always paying, or my patient husband won't be so patient..shew, hows that for some proper grammar streaming from my brain!

I wish I felt as comfortable with oils as I do with pastels, and maybe if I had more time to do both? Well, that will be a few years from now when everyone is in school all day. I guess I just have to settle and do what has to be done. :bewildere

I hear you Mary...

However, I would flip it around and look at it as - how fortunate you are to have these great skills and confidence with pastels. You said the commissions keep rolling in (I wish I were where you are - last week I offered my Yulia pastel as a sample for a charity funraiser - they said "thanks, but no thanks"...I can't even give 'em away!!!)

Mike is right. As an artist, I think that a pastel is every bit as "legitimate" as an oil painting - and it may take just as long to complete. The main thing is quality. But the market says pastels should be cheaper. So be it. Part of me is glad...if I can offer different media at a more tiered price structure, I figure I will get more commissions. As long as I enjoy doing pastels, and I'm not giving them away (someday I'll reach that "plateau!"))...I enjoy looking at artist's websites that show work in two or three different media. I think it reveals more of where the artist's head and heart are.

I just try to separate what the art really is, what it means - and the pure business/marketing end of it. There are inevitably contradictions. And we all just have to decide for ourselves if it is worth it.

DAVID! You can give her to me! ;)

Oh my heck, If I could paint anything remotely as wonderful as your "Yulia" I would be raking it in!.

I think I am just in a fortunate spot here, I'm in the south, have small children therefore know lots of other people with small children and am fortunate that most of my friends and their friends, etc are the type of young professionals that can afford to have portraits done. Or at the very least assume their parents will pay to have the grandchildren done simply because it is what "NEEDS" to be done in their opinions.

I don't really struggle with this, I do agree with how Chris made her's the same cost, if/when I become good enough I would do the same thing, not because of this is harder or that is harder, but because I feel a pastel is equally as beautiful as an oil.

Pastels achieve such a different look from oils I can't even look a them as apples and apples. I think it is the "look" that your client is wanting that should dictate this. A pastel can be so much looser and impressionist than a traditional oil, and some people like that.

I find that the best thing for me to do is bring people into the studio and let them see the difference and decide that way.

Mike if you like them why don't you just equal out your prices, thus it will dictate if you do them for something other than making more money?

If anything I find that oils have challenged me to be that much better with my pastels. I think it is exciting to take the "oil" techniques and apply them to pastels. The results can be incredibly beautiful, but then again they can go the other way too.

If there is a cost difference in you rate sheet, I tell people this can really equal out when it comes to framing anyway.

Who wouldn't want one of Sharon's ballerinas hanging in their house?

Maybe we should band together all just price them equally.

You do have a point Beth. It does tend to cost more to frame the pastels and I also agree that it is very hard to compare them. My goal is to feel good about both mediums and eventually have them basically, if not exactly, equal in price and let the look and quality of the work dictate what the client decides to have done. I have never been the most self confident person when it comes to painting and part of me felt like I had to charge less with the pastels, just simply because most other people do the same. It didn't take long for me to realize just as much work went into them, and frankly they have been a lot more expensive than the oils to do!

Mike, I don't know that I have ever seen a pastel you have done! Why not do like Chris, and as Beth as suggested and charge the same.

Since I have only been doing these pastels just a little over a year, when I am asked why they are so much less than the oils, I just say to think of it as my "introductory" price. That before too long I will raise the prices. They seem to buy it and think they are getting a big deal ;)

Pastel puzzle
 

Mike, I am glad you posted this. In my mind I play this scenario over and over. First, I bought a nice set of portrait pastels (many shades of brown, pinks, greys, etc.) Then the backgrounds got more complicated as I offered more choices, so I had to buy more colors-AND THE COLORS NEVER END. I can mix colors with oils and use only eight max on my pallet, but very rarely can mix colors with pastels.

Now, I feel I still have an incomplete set of pastels...have spent more on them than all my other supplies put together and get maybe two pastel commissions a year.

Also, the host of the life-drawing group I go to cringes when I walk in with pastels because of the dust.

Hmm...

Hi Mary -

After reading these posts and others, I have been feeling silly for offering pastels at essentially half-price of oils. But I did that only after researching going rates on many portrait artists' websites.

I wasn't even going to do pastels, but a potential customer wanted more than a charcoal drawing, but less money involved than an oil would have required. Who am I to turn down a commission at this point? Apparently, I am able to do pastels without too much struggling with the medium, so why not do it and at least get some commissions I might not otherwise get?

I, too, have put down "special introductory rates" on my advertising flyer, with a deadline for the end of this year. That way, there is a time limit for the current pricing and pastels can always be re-priced, depending on demand.

I hear ya Morris.

Beth you wrote:

Beth, would you mind coming at me one more time with this?

Mary you wrote:

Up at the top I wrote:

[QUOTE]* I thought the answer might be to raise my prices equal to oil. What that causes for me is more anxiety. If my price for pastel is the same as oil then I feel that I should be able to produce an equally quality product. Without the constant practice I don

Mike,

Ok, I undertsand, and sorry for asking a question you already answered. I understand feeling like you are better in one than in the other. I feel like my pastels are better than my oils and why people still hire me and pay more for something I think isn't is good is beyond me.
Maybe it isn't as obvious to untrained eyes as it is to just the average person, but it is blatant to me and I want to be proficient at both..there again, it takes practice, and practice takes time and time is something I have very little of these days. SO, I getchya.

Oh, and thanks for posting those, my memory has now been jogged. And really, do any of the portraits we see on this forum look the same as in person? I know none of mine do.

Julie, like you, I feel like why turn down ANY opportunities for commissions at this point in my life? But still, it bothers me that my time isn't compensated the same.

I agree that it's a good idea to offer a less expensive alternative to oil. To this end I think the monochromatic drawings serve this purpose well. To me they seem to be a more reasonable match of effort to price.

I started by creating a pricing matrix that encompassed every medium possibility within each and every canvas size. My thinking has evolved to a much simpler statement. It always comes down to a personal negotiation anyway IE: size of canvas depending on composition, this hand in, that Spaniel out. So why not just have a broad pricing guideline which leads you into these negotiations, instead of some hard wired grid which may only serve to limit your own ability to be flexible.

When you are perceived as one who easily moves away from your own hard written guidelines, then the other side senses that everything is up for negotiation.

Adding to the pastel discussion
 

Hi all,

This discussion caught my eye because I am in the middle of completing a full color pastel. I am going to play devil's advocate here. I do see the logic in charging less for a pastel portrait. Here are some of my thoughts on why:

1) An oil painting costs more to create. The panel, the primer, brushes, oils, solvents, mediums, etc. are all very costly materials. A drawing can be done on a $10 piece of paper with a $100 set of pastels and a bridge. (easy!)

2) I like to take a break from working with the toxic oil painting materials. I get nervous about the constant exposure to lead, cadmiums, mercury & the fumes from the solvents. I think of a pastel portrait as less detrimental to my health.

3) I don't have to spend days preparing the canvas. I can get a pastel paper ready for drawing within an hour. If it is a disaster...an hour later I am ready to try again.

4) When you pay for an oil painting you are getting a far more permanent portrait. As much as I love pastels and the look of them they are not going to last like an oil painting. The Toulouse- Lautrec & Degas pastels I saw in Paris were all kept behind glass, in climate controlled rooms, with the lights carefully dimmed. They were working very hard to slow their decay, not many people are going to have a protections like that in their home.

4) I find offering a less expensive alternative to oil paintings keeps me busy!!

Lara Cannon

First of all, let me say I could be wrong! But the following is my understanding:

Although you are avoiding fumes from solvents from painting with pastels, you are still being exposed to the cadnium, etc. Pastels use the same pigments (generally) as oil paints. In oil paints, the pigments are suspended in a medium and thus trapped, while the pigments in pastels are free to travel about and not only land on your skin but also can be inhaled. So in that sense, it is possible that pastels can be more harmful to your health.

I believe that pastels are, technically, more archival than oil paints. I think the difference comes in where the support is concerned. Paper will break down before canvas, etc. But the pastel itself should supposedly never break down as it is pure pigment and has no vehicle, resins, oils, etc to age, yellow, decompose over time. Of course temperature and humidity and other conditions come into play but this is true to a certain extent with oils as well.

Can anyone confirm or deny the above? I'd be interested to know.

Also, I am not saying this does or does not affect the relative prices of oils and pastels.

Pastels Toxicity
 

Hi Lacey,

Your comment on the materials in pastels caught me by surprise. I did some quick searches on-line. I use Sennelier Soft Pastels which according to their label & website are non-toxic. I also use Faber-Castell Pitt Pastel Pencils & Generals charcoal pencils. I checked them both and I couldn't find any health label warnings on them.

There are several other quality brands I found on-line that are advertised as non-toxic. The Schmincke Soft Pastels contain ingredients that are toxic or hazardous, but the label says they can be used safely with appropriate caution.

My general understanding of the archival quality of pastels is that the colors are sensitive to light and should never be in direct sunlight. The paper itself is the deteriorating factor. Of course, I have seen drawings by Leonardo da Vinci (behind glass & dimly lit) that are still here to be admired. Perhaps I should have said that pastel portraits require more special handeling to maintain their original beauty.

Jumping in, here
 

My understanding is that it is usually the paper, more than the pigment in the pastels that deteriorate due to light. Some colors are more lightfast than others (yellow is usually a problem), but this is true with paints as well as pastels.

I agree that the support used for a pastel work is the determining factor for longevity. If you use an actual paper product, clearly it will become subject to the ravages of time, but some of the sanded "papers" are rated at 300 to 500 years (e.g. Wallis brand). Then of course, there are pastel works on panels. I would venture to guess that the exquisite works of Sharon Knettel will survive to be admired for hundreds of years. :D

The real trick to ensuring the longevity of a pastel work is to make certain that it is properly framed under glass using archival quality (acid free) materials. Articles that I have read make claims that works of pastel on paper retain a more brilliant color than oil paintings of a similar age because of the yellowing of many varnishes, etc. I think, in the end, it all comes down to personal preference and feelings.

I am sure delighted that we have outstanding artists out there who get the same prices for their oils and pastels. I am personally much better with pastels than oils - the opposite issue from Mike. Maybe I should charge more for pastels? ;)

Great thread, interesting discussion!

This Vigee Le Brun pastel under glass of Marie Antoinette hangs in the Ringling museum here in Sarasota. This is at least six feet tall and is quite stunning. I suppose that it would not be considered ancient, but has been around well over a fortnight.

Mine is purely a business decision and has nothing to do with the aesthetics of pastel work. Also, if someone challenged me tomorrow I would do my best to come up to speed.

Another Tangent: Pastel Preservation
 

Hi,

Let me first apologize for taking this so far away from the original topic. The conversation made me curious about the preservation of pastels. I did a little research and found the following article to be very useful. I will reference it's source (I hope that covers copyright infringement?) Anyway here is what I found:

Pastel Conservation
The following article was taken from a lecture given by Ross Merrill on October 4 at the 1997 IAPS Convention at Kansas City, Missouri. Mr. Ross Merrill has served as the Chief of Conservation at the National Gallery of Art, Washington D.C. (USA) for the past 15 years.

(http://www.capecodpastelsociety.com/conservation.html):

During his presentation, Mr. Merrill presented current research on conservation of pastel paintings in order to inform artists in their choice of materials, both for archival quality and user safety. Mr. Merrill assumed the position of "devils advocate; providing basic facts about the medium and dispelling myths. His concern as a conservator is for the "long term", for the work's ability to withstand the test of time. It is his position, therefore, to assume the worst possible conditions and to attempt to preserve the work in the best possible condition.

There are four components to a pastel painting: Support, Pastel Layer, Fixative Mounting.

One of the important tasks for the National Gallery is to preserve art works during shipping. A painting packed for shipping must be able to withstand 50 g's of force, the equivalent of dropping it from 36' onto concrete, the same distance from the tailgate of a truck to the ground. However, tests completed at the National Gallery have shown that pastels will only withstand a force of10 g's. This is the equivalent g force to dropping a suitcase on the airport floor. According to Mr. Merrill, "Any more than 10 g's, and some pastel pigments will be dislodged."

Other factors figure into this formula. When a pastel is not firmly attached to a backing material (for example, attached to linen or hung free), the amount of vibration the work can withstand is significantly less than the 10 g's tested for properly mounted works. The simple vibration from the road and motor of a vehicle will be enough to dislodge some pigment if the supporting material is free to oscillate within the crate. It is therefore important that pastels be firmly attached to a mounting surface.

Support: During the 18th century, pastels were applied to vellum or paper which was attached to a canvas. These pages were placed like tiles over the canvas and today the paper seams can be seen when viewing the images in a museum. Since then there have been many advances in pastel supports.

The support is the surface the pastel pigment is applied to. It is a mistake for a pastel painter who is concerned with fine quality work and superior quality pastel pigments to overlook the quality of the support. Further, there is nothing a conservator can do to preserve or repair a support which has deteriorated from the effects of acid. This condition is usually caused by poor quality support made from a wood pulp base. Since the buffering effect of calcium carbonate is exhausted over time, those supports which advertise neutral pH will eventually return to the natural acid condition of the stock.

Many of the supports manufactured today for pastel art are textured. Textured surfaces have become very popular in the last half of the 20th century, yet most of these supports are not of archival quality. Some researchers and conservators who work in pastels refuse to use textured surfaces because they believe the support is unstable.

Some artists believe it is possible to seal a pastel into a frame so tightly that oxygen can be excluded, but Mr. Merrill stated that oxygen can even penetrate the surface of Plexiglas. That being the case, nothing can protect the support from oxygen.

Mr. Merrill suggests that a serious artist who wants a textured surface should consider applying an acrylic followed by pumice to the surface of 100% rag paper. This should provide a stable support. In conclusion, he asserted that any support made from a wood pulp base will not have a long life.

Another problem of supports is lightfastness. Early supports of100% rag (colored before being made into paper) were very light fast. However, later developments in the treatment of supports with color have not proven as effective. Today, most supports are quite "fugitive" (subject to fading). It is important for an artist to know the lightfastness of a support which will showthrough the finished work.

Colorfastness can be tested. As an example, Mr. Merrill presented a test kit which uses the "British Wool Standard," blocks of British dyed felt used to determine the amount of light energy which reaches the support samples. Or items to be tested can simply be positioned in a studio's north window.

100% rag paper such as Reeves BFK can be treated with a lightfast watercolor pigment as a background tint. This technique, which uses an archival support with pumice should pose no problems for the longevity of the piece.

An inquiry from the audience was made about a new support called "Solid Ground." Mr. Merrill stated that this support is composed of poly vinyl chloride (pvc) and is susceptible to UV light. It is also the same material used in some plastic pipes and with time is subject to "off gassing." Supports such as masonite, plyboard, and pressboard are unstable. However, new treatments have become available which can be applied to the surface to provide a barrier coat to prevent the acids inside the board from altering the pastels or the base coat.

Pastel Layer: Fillers are designed to reduce the chroma of a pastel stick. Fillers make the pastel opaque. In the past, material such as Plaster of Paris, kaolin, alabaster, chalk, and titanium white were used. In the 19th century, it was understood that particular pigments were best combined with particular fillers, and so pastel makers experimented to find the best filler for each color. Today, a universal filler composed primarily of aluminum, kaolin, plaster is used.

It is interesting to note that the high quality of pastels being produced today has spurred a renaissance of the medium. At the beginning of this century, pastels declined in quality and the medium suffered in popularity. In the past, discriminating artists often made their own pastels, but today manufactured materials are of such high quality that is no longer necessary.

Another issue of lightfastness is in the pigments themselves. Pastels are pure pigments applied to a support. A rule of thumb for the artist is that the thicker the layer of pastel, the less susceptible it will be to fading. The problems occur when the coating is thin. In oil or watercolor painting, the glazing coat shows the most fading over time. Also in oils or watercolors, there is a binder which helps reduce the effects of ultraviolet light on the pigments. Although binders in oil paints tend to darken pigments, they also tend to protect them.

Due to the issue of lightfastness, the pastel artist should take care to select colors which show the greatest resistance to fading. Each manufacturer publishes a chart which shows the relative lightfastness of their pigments. These ratings do not yet compare the products of different companies. The American Society for Testing Materials (ASTM) tests oils and watercolors. Mr. Merrill hopes that soon there will also be a standard for pastel pigments.

The pastel artist needs to be aware that there are some synthetic dyes and pigments on the market. Most of these are coal tar derivatives which are no longer used in mainline pastel products, but in some are found in cheaper pastels and pencils. These aniline dye-type pigments are notoriously fugitive.

Binders control the hardness of the pastel stick. The more binder used, the harder the stick. The binder, however, has nothing to do with the way the pastel adheres to the surface of the support. The binder has no effect on the pigment beyond holding the stick together.

Early pastels were made of either pure pigment or natural chalks. The definition of a pastel is a pigment which has been purposely made using binders. Chalks are natural. A few of the binders used in the past were gum arabic, honey, and sugar water.

The most common binder today is methyl cellulose. Gum arabic will give a harder pastel, but it will tend to mold and yellow with time. Methyl cellulose is not susceptible to mold or yellowing.

In oil pastels, the binding agent is either wax or oil. Oil pastel sticks have less wax.

Fixatives: Another problem is fixing pigments to the support. Unfixed pastels are easily smudged and should be framed immediately. Some artists of the past considered pastels to be only temporary expressions of art.

In the past, some artists fixed pastel artwork by placing a piece of paper over it and burnishing the pastel down into the support. According to Mr. Merrill, it is amazing how well the technique works.

Most of the pastelists from previous generations used fixatives. Degas used fixatives. His favorite was alcohol and white shellac. Today there are a number of alternatives. Krylon Acrylic Varnish B72 is used by conservators. This product will remain unchanged for 400 years, but does have a tendency to saturate the surface. Grumbacher B77 varnish or "tough film" is the same as B72, but will not saturate. Krylon workable fixative and Sennelier fixative are both good products. One should stay away from Grumbacher's"blue label" fixative.

Mr. Merrill stated that no matter what the condition of the pastel when in enters the conservation laboratory, it will be fixed before it leaves. Almost all pastels from the past have been fixed. This procedure will continue. Be assured that if your works make it to any museum, they will be fixed.

Laura,

You might want to review this thread entitled:

Pastels - Substrates, Materials, Methods and Conservation

http://forum.portraitartist.com/showthread.php?t=2159

The question of the moment
 

Hi.
I'm new to the forum, but just wanted to say thank you to Mike for starting this thread. This is something I've been wondering about for myself, lately.
I had decided to pursue pastels because I thought that they would be easier with my strength being in drawing and not color. However, the advice I received recently was if I wanted to make any money as a portraitist I should pursue oils. Being a rebel, I disregarded this advice. And the very next week, was asked to do an oil portrait. I'm finding oils to be easier for me. Probably because they are more forgiving and you can mix on the palette instead of clogging the paper trying to get the right color.
However, I'm not one to give up and I want to be proficient at both pastels and oils.
My question is (and this is probably a broader question), do we artists have the responsibility to advocate for pastels as a medium equal to oils in value or should we leave influencing the market to the patrons?
I don't have an answer or an opinion on this question, I'm just wondering what more experienced professional artists think.
Thank you, and I promise not to post any more until I've finished reading the rest of the forum.

I take the key word in your question to be "responsibility." Personally, I don't feel any particular responsibility to do this. I do feel a responsibility to be in a position to educate on the subject, but not necessarily to advocate for any particular medium. I want to be an effective advocate for my own strengths. The medium will have to make it's own way on this earth as best it can, just like me.