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This is not to advocate for the home-made-canvas. But I think wee should consider this: When a canvas is primed at the factory it will be rolled immediately when it is "dry". Then comes a period of "curing", that may be a hardening process, I believe.
One day we buy the canvas in the shop and stretch it. Then, what happens? The dry curved paint will crack, won

Sharon, there are commercially lead primed canvases available. What led you to believe that this is the case? New York Central Artists' Supplies and Soho Artists' Supplies, both located in New York City, sell them. I'm currently working on a portrait and I'm using a portrait grade linen purchased from Soho.

I bought unprimed linen from Mr. Doak as well as lead primer and a bottle of pure liquid lead to add to the primer. It's still sitting in my closet. The thought of dealing with liquid lead and all the negative health implications really freaked me out. The liquid lead must be added to the primer for the one month cure time to be valid. It's not practical for me to prepare a canvas one year in advance.

I also bought five hundred dollars worth of paint. His paint is ground in walnut oil and it was just too slow drying for my purposes. He prefers to use very transparent pigments that are geared toward the Venetian technique. Again not well suited for my purposes.

I did purchase a book from him, "The Secret of The Old Masters" by Albert Abendschein. This book opened my eyes to the problems of using all sorts of mediums and advocates the use of unadulterated linseed oil. This one book has had a tremendously profound effect on my approach to painting so I consider the $500 well spent..

I hate to put this in, but I will. I don't recommend Soho art materials. They sent me a defective canvas and then did not replace it exactly. I spent twice as much as I intended since I paid for a stretched canvas, but had to end up re-stetching my own. I didn't get what I paid for - and they quite frankly didn't care.

The only good news is that I bought the good pliers you recommended Sharon. I can't say I was sucessful at it, but my husband was - after he removed what I tried. I need to practice on a smaller canvas.

Sharon, I've been using Claessen's 13DP "lead primed" linen for a few years now. Is Robert Doak saying that their stuff isn't really lead primed after all?

Sharon,

Robert Doak is indeed passionate about what he believes to be true, and then when he finds out he was wrong about something, he is just as passionate in his advocacy of his new position. Do not equate passion with knowledge of reality. Doak is also passionate in his denouncements of his competitors, and it is wise to take that with a grain of salt as well. He has some good products to sell, and some that are questionable, but I don't take his word on which is which because he fervently believes that everything he sells is wonderful and better than anything else, and he is a very aggressive salesman.

Titanium does not make brittle paint films in oil; zinc oxide does. Titanium dioxide makes weak paint films, because as a powdered pigment it is very light and fluffy, and that is why it is mixed with zinc oxide in most "titanium" whites. The two combined minimize the faults of each. Is it as good as lead carbonate? Well, titanium dioxide and zinc oxide are not toxic the way lead is, but are they as durable over the centuries? Some people think so. I remain sceptical, though I think they will hold up quite well when bound with alkyd rather than unmodified linseed or other vegetable oil. Winsor & Newton's Oil and Alkyd Painting Primer is an alkyd ground pigmented with titanium dioxide and, if I recall correctly, zinc oxide, and my feeling is that this is at least as good a ground as any, and better than most. Gamblin Ground is very similar, more or less the same ingredients, perhaps varying in how much of what is in each. I have used them both, and intend to use them again. Robert Gamblin recommends scuffing the surface of Gamblin Ground with fine steel wool after it is dry for optimum adhesion. Of course it is important to then remove all the dust that has been generated by that process before painting on it. These alkyd grounds can be used one week after they are dry, unlike white lead, which takes much longer to cure. Of course we don't have several hundred years' track record to assure us that alkyd grounds will perform as well as white lead in the long run, but accelerated aging tests indicate that the alkyds will ultimately retain more of their flexibility than white lead oil grounds. I use them with confidence.

Most commercially available lead-primed linen is sized with rabbitskin glue, which is not ideal for that purpose because it is hygroscopic, and undergoes fairly drastic expansion and contraction when the humidity changes, which plays hell with the paint layer after it has lost its youthful flexibility, unless the canvas is glued to a rigid panel.

Stretched canvas is not really the ideal support for oil paintings, because oil paint films become brittle after 50-100 years. Hide glue (aka rabbitskin glue) exacerbates the problem by imposing tremendous stresses on the painting as it expands and contracts, causing extreme changes in the tension of the canvas.

I have been gluing my canvas to panels lately, and using Gamblin's Neutral pH PVA Size for sizing it, then priming it with one of the alkyd grounds I mentioned, more often than not, though I do still sometimes use white lead if I can let it cure for a year before I need to paint on it. Gluing the canvas to a panel goes a long way toward mitigating the problems inherent in stretched canvas supports, and makes all these choices less critical. It is quite possible that an acrylic ground would work just fine on canvas that is mounted on a panel. I still have my doubts about using it on stretched canvas, though, if the painting is to be done in oils. If I were to use an acrylic ground, Golden's would be my choice.

There are those who feel that PVA might ultimately prove problematic in some way, but since we KNOW hide glue will cause problems, I think it makes sense to use the best thing science has to offer instead of something that is known to definitely be problematic. It would be wonderful if we could have guarantees that this or that is the ideal product in every way, but there are always pros and cons to consider in reality, and we just have to make sure we are well informed and then use our best judgment.

Virgil Elliott

Thanks Virgil. Sage-like advice. I appreciate it.

I'm following this with much interest. I recently stretched raw unprimed linen, coated it with Gamblin's PVA size and then put a coat of Holbein Underpainting White (a lead white). I'm letting it sit for a month before I start work on this. I wouldn't use the Holbein product again, largely because it's so expensive, rougly akin to waxing your car with Chanel skin cream. (Not that I have any.)

I've since been told that Studio Products makes a good lead oil primer. Has anybody here tried it?

Linen
 

OK now what is the best linen and where do you get it?

And has ANYBODY used Mr. Doaks' stretchers?

Sharon, thanks for doing that Claessen's testing. I love the stuff and would be very interested to hear if any problems (rabbit skin sizing, lots of zinc white, etc.) come up.

I would bet that the Claessens has rabbit skin glue. It's been used for centuries. The PVA size may be scientifically tested but it hasn't endured the test of time. I don't care what anybody says, there are no guarantees.

Science may come up with a new breath mint that will cause all oil painting to turn green when exposed to the fumes. Some things are out of my control. I try to stick with materials that have stood the test of time. If I do artwork that is deemed worthy, conservators in the future will know how to preserve it.

I'm also leery of canvas glued to boards. I worry about the glue and what will happen to the board. I definitely don't like alkyd mediums. The layers can delaminate. This is something I have experienced first hand! Never again!

I don't paint on plastic. Like the old masters, I don't use any medium other than linseed oil. I use high quality pigments suspended primarily in linseed oil and I depend on knowledge, good drawing, brush handling skills and common sense to achieve the best results I can.

In my opinion artists spend far too much time worrying about materials and not enough time learning their craft. The most wonderful studio and equipment will not make you a great artist. Not that these things aren't nice to have mind you, they are beside the point.

When I grew up I had a neighbor who owned every conceivable piece of photography equipment imaginable. He still took the worst photos.

At some point you have to trust somebody unless you dig up roots and berries, press your own oil and weave your own canvas.

I like the stretchers that Doak carries. Soho Artists Supplies carry the same exact ones. If I call them up I'm not on the phone for two hours. They're the ones I use. They are very light and very strong. I have never had any problems dealing with them and I've been using them for years. To date, I really like their lead primed portrait linen.

Sharon,

Once again, it depends. Copal might be all right for use in small paintings on panel, where the increased gloss it produces does not cause a problem with glare, and where the increased ultimate brittleness it is likely to impart to the paint layer would be less likely to cause cracking than it could on a rigid panel, but there is the issue of how much medium one customarily uses. Too high a percentage of any medium is apt to cause problems. With copal there are a number of potential problems, though its advocates disagree, claiming that the proof that exists falls short of establishing that with absolute certainty. So far, none has been found in the paintings of the Old Masters, who seem to have been able to paint quite well with simple paints made from pigment and linseed or walnut oil.

I find it curious that so many painters of today consider it absolutely essential to paint with medium. It is better, in my opinion, to begin with paints that are fluid enough to be controllable under the brush as they come from the tube, or as close to it as possible, and only add a drop or two of linseed oil to soften them further where necessary. One can paint quite well with oil paints adjusted for consistency with linseed oil. Why complicate things if you don't need to?

Quality in painting derives from what is in the artist's head. It is not to be found in any magic medium.

I would not consider a purveyor of painting products an objective authority on painting products. It is not uncommon for people to mistake their beliefs for facts, and represent them as such. It is an important point to keep in mind.

Virgil Elliott

What paint!
 

Virgil,

I see your little green light is still on, SO before you get back to your work, WHAT oil paint are you currently using?

Ralph Mayer advocates the use of mineral spirits as opposed to linseed oil. This is indeed confusing!

Sharon,

If only things in reality were as simple as people expect them to be!

In my #1 paintbox are paints from Blockx, but only Series 1 and Series 3, which are ground in linseed oil (earth colors and Mars colors, ivory black); Old Holland; Williamsburg; Michael Harding; Sennelier; (blues, Indian yellow, ivory black, cadmium yellow-orange, cadmium red-orange); Winsor & Newton (Flake White #2, Foundation White, Flake White #1, and a few others); Gamblin; Daniel Smith Autograph Series; Robert Doak: Archival Oils (Permanent Alizarine); Vasari; M. Graham (blues); Rembrandt (their old formulation) and a few things I have ground myself from dry pigment and linseed oil.

Regarding Ralph Mayer, his book was originally published in 1940, and was periodically updated until he died 26 years ago, so it does not reflect the last word in painting materials knowledge. Publishers will keep it on the market as long as it continues to sell, and they do not know or care how much of the information it contains is true, or how much of it is wrong. It is indeed confusing, especially when several noted authors disagree, which they do. Frederick Taubes, Ralph Mayer and Jacques Maroger all wrote books, and contradicted one another on many points. Then there are the other books by other authors, including Kurt Wehlte, Max Doerner, Charles Locke Eastlake, Abendschein, etc., and there is very little consensus of opinion among them on anything. Mark Gottsegen's "The Painter's Handbook" is the most recent, and the most reliable, though not 100% correct on everything, as Mark acknowledges. He has just delivered a manuscript of a revised edition to his publisher, to be released in perhaps a year, which should be the most reliable reference book for painting materials, since it reflects the present-day state of scientific knowledge, chemistry, etc. I haven't read the revised edition yet, so I cannot say whether I think he is right about everything, but we seem to see eye-to-eye on most of these issues when we discuss them. We are on the same ASTM subcommittee. I recall Mark saying that he now regards the original edition as correct about 75-80% of the time. New knowledge comes to the fore all the time, as new discoveries are made constantly, so any book is apt to become dated within a short time.

Mineral spirits is a solvent, not a medium, not a vehicle for binding pigment into paint. Solvents weaken the binding power of vegetable oils. One might get by with adding a little bit, but more than the bare minimum will weaken the resulting paint layer. It will also dull the surface to some degree. It is not a good thing to use as a medium.

Virgil Elliott

So you're using it as a cutting board after all!

One of the good qualities of Linseed Oil is that it has the smallest molecules of all mediums, so that it will adhere to any surface better than all other.

When the Linseed Oil is absorbed in the surface it will obtain Oxygen and swell, which will strengthen the adherence. That is also why it can wrinkle if applied too thickly. (Paint with too much oil added)

Like Marvin, I have bad experience with Alkyd for priming.

I would never use Mineral Spirit in Linseed Oil. Better Vegetable Turps or Venetian Turps if I need a thin wash. Mineral Spirit will always make the paint matte and I believe that it spoils the linseed oil.

Allan

Fredrix Rix DP- is a lead primed Belgian linen.
 

Dear Sharon and Michele:

For the last few years I have used Belgian oil primed linen made by Fredrix: Rix DP (111DP).

For whatever it is worth, I have no doubt at all when the label says it is lead primed that it is, because it has the distinctive smell characteristic of lead priming. Other whites and primers don't smell the same as Flake White.

Garth

I asked Rick January, of Fredrix, whether his company still used lead priming on its lead-primed linen, and Rix specifically, and he confirmed that it was still being primed with lead.

My conservator contacts at the National Gallery have repeatedly expressed concern over the hide glue sizing of pre-primed canvases, which imposes fairly extreme changes in canvas tension as the glue expands and contracts in reaction to fluctuations in humidity. Ultimately, this can be expected to lead to cracking of the paint layer, after the paint film has stiffened with age. Some people don't care if this happens to their paintings, but I think it's important that they be aware of it, at least.

Virgil Elliott

For what its worth, on page 55 of the latest Italian Art Store catalog they offer three styles of pre primed linen rolls.. Oil primed, acrylic primed and lead primed.
Their most popular portrait linen is AC260 and it states that it is double primed by hand.

The store is located in New Jersey, so maybe Marvin has had some experience with this.
Alicia

Sharon,

What regulation there is is in the form of ASTM standards, which are voluntary standards not enforced by law, but high standards of performance that must be met before any manufacturer can claim that its products conform to the pertinent ASTM standard. ASTM Standard D 4302 is the standard for Artists' Oil, Resin-Oil, and Alkyd Paints; D 4303 is the standard for lightfastness testing methods; D 5067 is the Standard Specification for Watercolor Paints; D 5098 is the Standard Specification for Artists' Acrylic Emulsion Paints, and D 6901 is the new colored pencil standard. We are currently drafting a standard for pastels. Some manufacturers do not care to meet ASTM standards, for reasons of their own, but most of the reputable major manufacturers do. I participate in the development of these standards as a member of the Subcommittee on Artists' Paints and Materials, representing the interests of artists.

The artist DOES have a chance of getting quality materials, by paying attention to whether the products he or she considers buying meet the ASTM standard for the product in question, where there is such a standard. And the more artists insist on that, the more manufacturers will be compelled to make sure their products come up to that level of quality. Case in point, pastels. Before we (ASTM) turned our attention to pastels, many of the pastels on the market, including some with exalted reputations, had an unacceptably high percentage of fugitive colors, i.e., colors that fade significantly. As soon as I showed the Subcommittee the results of my preliminary lightfastness tests, at least three Manufacturers began to reformulate their lines in order to improve the performance of their pastels, and there are sure to be others following suit before we are done. Until that started, pastellists did not express concern for permanence, so the companies used whatever pigments were cheapest, irrespective of whether they would fade or not. This same basic process took place with oil paints many years ago, then with watercolors, then acrylics, the end result in each case being improved quality of the products. So when enough artists demand it, the manufacturers will respond by providing it. Look for those ASTM labels.

There will undoubtedly be certain purveyors of products who will have bad things to say about ASTM if the subject comes up; most likely these will be people who have products to sell that do not meet the standards. A grain of salt is advisable in such instances.

By the way, one of the issues currently being looked into by members of the Subcommittee is the possibility of a standard for painting grounds, aka primers.

Virgil Elliott

Did the Claessen's have rabbit hide glue?

Thanks anyway, Sharon!

A few odds and ends to add.

Marvin, liquid lead is the one, to be most careful of health wise. It

My canvas experiences....
 

I am glad this post got started. I am still in this forever ending search for the right feeling canvas...

For a while during my days of trying to do what Schmid did, I tried doing the lead white on panel, lead white on canvas, etc. That produced nothing but slippery painting surface for me, I don't know how Richard did it... he doesn't use that anymore though. He doesn't have the time or energy to prepare his own canvas anymore. I tried the Williamsburg Lead and its too slippery for me.

So then I tried Soho's Indian Linen with white lead priming. I really liked everything about this canvas except it was a little to thin and the lead yellowed REALLY fast. I should probably try their Belgian linen and have it DP'd with lead... I wanted to see if they would tone the canvases as well.

I have been using Claessens Oil Primed forever... 66DP, 13DP 15DP you name it, I have used it. Works good but still no there yet to what I want. Plus I like to work on toned canvases so buying premade canvas was out of the question for that.

So I talked to Morgan Weistling on the phone the other day and he suggested to do what he does. He uses Acrylic primed Claessens and then tones it with regular liquitex acrylic paint. Burnt Umber and and a touch of Cobalt Blue. Produces a greenish tone and I painted on a swatch he sent me and wallah! It produced the feel I wanted for the alla prima method I use. Not sure how it will be for glazing the longer pieces I do though. Might be too absorbent.

Anyhow, I am still looking for the right canvas for all around.

The quest continues!

Tony

P.S. I have been wanting to call Mr. Doak for a while but am a little nervous.. its like calling Gandalf of the painting world.

Tony et al,

I have become increasingly enamored with very smooth surfaces. I have also found the Claessen's (and a few others) are too slippery and greasy for me to deal with. Nontheless, I love the very smooth grounds they offer in terms of being able to really get tiny detail.

I now use the www.NewTraditionsartpanels.com , L-600 pretty much all the time. Out of the box, it is way too slick for me. I have (compliments of Rob Howard, www.studioproducts.com) now learned to work a first layer, be it toner or paint, in the Studio Products Underpainting medium. The medium dries almost immediately, and yields a surface that is uniformly matte, and that has a bit of tooth. It prepares a slick surface beautifully for the next coat of paint. I use it as well when I paint in oil, on Wallis paper.

Chris

Have you tried working alla prima on this? Is too slick for that. I am intrigued by this seller. Have not heard of them before now and it looks like they all the good linens. Dave Davis.. which Richard (Schmid) uses... interesting.

Tony

I use the Claessens 13DP for everything and find it works just fine painting alla prima. It's not too slippery for me and I have no trouble covering it with one fairly thin coat of paint. Personal preference, I guess!

Tony,

The only all prima work I seem to do anymore, is the open studio stuff. I wouldn't try to work on a slick surface that hasn't been toned with the underpainting medium.