Paxton vs. cads and shadow help please!
 

Hello,

I have been working on my 'babysitter' portrait, which was posted in the photo reference section a while ago. My computer has since crashed so I no longer have it on file, but what I'm concerned about here is the COLOR of my shadows (not likeness).

I have been having trouble getting a good shadow color using the Paxton palette. I'll post a portrait I did of my son using cads, I am happy with the color of shadows using cads.

From all I've read on this forum about the Paxton palette, I don't understand why it's not working for me. It seems to be 'easier' for most people, and I do like the skin tones I get using that palette, it's just those darn shadows that I can not get.

I'll post two photos, in the first one her skin tones, especially the shadow side of her face was too brown. With the Paxton palette I think the light side of my face has more chroma in it than I used to have when I was using cads and this is good. If this is the case, I need to have my shadow side even darker to get that difference in values. So, the first one I felt was too brown. Then I decided to paint my shadows more grey, but that made the babysitter look like she had a five o'clock shadow.

On the second photo I've pulled some of the lighter values over into the shadow, I'm only putting shadow where the deepest shadows are. But the color is icky. I've used a lot of burnt sienna mixed with viridian, I get a decent looking neutral but it doesn't look like skin tones in shadow to me when I put it on the canvas.

So, can somebody help me please. I just can't seem to get a shadow color correct. Can it be just a darker skin tone? Does it need to be a brown, or grey? I have cool light so I'm going for warm shadows here.

The only thing I can think of to do next is to repaint the face lighter and then I'm thinking I won't have to get the shadows so dark to get the difference in values.

I've been adding 'layers' as I go and I think the last layer may have washed out some of the shadow on the side of her nose, for example.

I have repainted this face probably 4 times now and I'm about to throw the whole thing out the window! I hope somebody can give me a clue about how I should be painting the shadows.

thank you,

Joan

P.S. The third image will be of my son using cads which at this point I think his skin tones look better than the babysitters!

Hi Joan,

I don't know if anyone likes my skin colors but me, but I'll tell you what I do. I first mix up yellow ochre with a little light red to get a sort of brick red-orange, which is my basic source for skin color. For the shadows, I take part of this and add ultramarine blue and indian red to get a sort of purple grey. (I take another part of the original mixture and add white for the light skin color.) I cover every part of the face and other skin with either the light or shadow colors. At this point it looks weird. I use only these colors to blend in the halftones; suddenly it looks a lot better. I use these original pigments, their mixtures, plus burnt sienna to tweak in the variations in hue in different areas of the face. I add white for the highlights, and a black I make from burnt sienna and ultramarine to deepen the darkest shadows.

Obviously, I recommend you do not try this right out on your painting, but experiment on a sketch first to see if it works for you.

Daniel Greene video
 

After spending the last couple of hours doing searches for 'shadows' on this forum I found a reference to Daniel Greene's video and his pre-mixed colors. And what do you know, I have that video, just never opened it (!) so I've taken off the plastic wrapping and I'll view this tape to see what Mr. Greene has to say about mixing shadow colors.

But . . . . for me the answer isn't a pre-mixed color, it's knowing what color is there in the shadows. I feel like I am missing something and I need some enlightenment on "how to see" shadows. I'm not sure this makes sense but I must have some kind of mental block against seeing shadow colors.

Anybody had any experience with mixing shadows with the Paxton palette and with a cad palette and would like to share their experiences? I would love to hear it, I can learn from everything at this point.

thanks,

Joan

Thank you Chuck
 

Chuck,

Thank you very much for replying. I suspect no two people mix their colors the same way, but you have given me a lot of information and I will do some experimenting, as you suggest.

Okay, this is how I get my basic skin color too.

I do something similar for the lit side of the face, I use ultramarine blue in the mix but only for the lit side. Hmm, I never added blue to the shadow side because I'm stuck on "warm" colors for the shadows. So that's where I'm getting in trouble, I'm using all kinds of things to get my shadows, but not blue. I will try that, though I'm confused about using what I thought was a cool color? Maybe I'm too hung up on what's a cool color and what's a warm color?


Hmm, this sounds interesting. I will try this for my deep shadows, though there is that blue again in the warm shadows.

Thanks,

Joan

Some Sample Mixes
 

Hi Joan -

Cool and warm are relative terms in a painting. You can have a cool or warm red, same for blue.

Personally, I like using non cad's for skin tones, but then I use whatever I feel I need for the shadows. Probably the best thing is to get books on the subject like Chris Sapers book on skin tones - she has some good mixes to use (although not cad-free, of course)- I also like "How to Paint Living Portraits" by Roberta Clark. Here are a few mixes for flesh tones and shadows she suggests as a starting point:

white, raw sienna, light red, cobalt blue - good all-around

white, ras sienna, Venetian red, cobalt blue - basic, a bit softer

white, yellow ochre, burnt sienna ultramarine blue - for medium - med. dark complexions

white, Naples yellow, light red, viridian luminous - good for children

There's others for darker complexions, but this will give you a start.

Thank you Julie
 

Thank you Julie for your reply and those sample shadow colors. I will mix them up tomorrow and see what I get. It'll be educational to makes squares of each color.

I do have Chris' book and I realized half an hour ago that I need to pull it out again. Actually, it's open to the skin tone samples page and is lying next to my easel.

thanks again,

Joan

Joan, I'm not quite at the Paxton palette yet so I'm not sure I should respond to this, but remember that warm and cool are not only relative terms, they are comparative terms as well. If you go cooler in the lights your shadows will look warmer. Spend a day making flesh charts with your paints - experiment with your reds, yellows and a blue or green - and hang them somewhere where you can refer to them.

Stop worrying so much about the color. Concentrate instead on making that head look three dimensional - bring some parts forward, move some parts back.

Cool and cooler
 

Hi Linda,

Thank you for your reply. I have lost some of the head's 3-D quality since I've painted over this so much, which is a shame. I can see that I've lost some of the shape since I've been focusing on the color. I can get that back though.

Are you saying that if the lit side is very cool, then the shadow side can be cool too? But if it's not AS cool, it will look warm? I've read so much about cool and warm on this forum, I thought that was a 'rule'. Though I can hear Marvin saying that once you learn the rules, then you can break them (Marvin, hope I got that right).

Joan

P.S. Cooler
 

P.S. Linda, are you saying my lights don't look cool enough? I thought they were pretty cool, but I will take your advice and make a chart with different colors. I didn't know if you were talking in general terms or specifically about the face I painted when you said I could "go cooler in the lights".

Thanks again,

Joan

Shadowman
 

I thought I would post a charcoal drawing I did from life to illustrate that I can see the darks, it's just the dark colors that I'm having a hard time with. I had an instructor once tell me that if the world were in black and white I would be great. But, thankfully, the world isn't black and white, so I need to learn this. If I were to paint this guy, he would most likely look A LOT flatter than he does now.

I usually do my underpainting to get the values correct, but then when I start to go over it with paint, the shadows get lighter and lighter because I don't like the dark colors I come up with.

I hope this helps to illustrate my problem.

Joan

All I can say is attend a Marvin Mattelson workshop. With the information he gives about how to use his palette, your questions about "what color is that and how do I get it?" will be answered and you will understand why and how you got it.

Words can not express how happy I am that I studied with him.

Good luck.

Janel

Marvin's workshop
 

Hi Janel,

Unfortunately that's easier said than done. I live in Houston and have two young children at home so it's hard for me to leave for a week! I did try to get to his July 26th workshop in NYC but the dormitory was full which meant I would have been taking the subway to and from the class to a hotel somewhere (and the school had NO recommendations at all about where to stay), the plane ticket was expensive and my dad ended up in the hospital that week so I really needed to be here. Had I been there I would have had to leave in the middle of the workshop.

I have heard so many great things about Marvin's workshop, that's why I tried to make arrangements to go. There is still hope for next summer though. It would just be easier to get away when the kids are in school during the school year, but he doesn't teach his week long workshops during the school year, he's busy teaching his regular classes.

I certainly don't mean to whine ;) but I need to get this figured out, even if I am able to get to one of his classes in the summer of 2005 that's still a year away.

Thanks,

Joan

I have studied with Marvin and, with my partner Denise Hall, organized Marvin

Values of many colors
 

Renee,

Thank you so much, I am beginning to understand more. This whole thing about mixing different values of EACH color is new to me. I have studied a lot of posts by Marvin about Paxton's palette and even ordered all the colors mailorder from the Italian Art Supply place that he recommended. So, I have all the colors.

I recently viewed Daniel Greene's video and he does something that sounds similar, mixing a number of values in each color. As I said, this is new to me. I understood that Marvin mixed his neutrals in all the values.

I will have to find the post that tells me exactly what the neutral is. I remember there was yellow ochre in it ( a yellow) to neutralize the blue in the black. Can't remember exactly . . .

Renee, are you saying that when you decide to paint, say, a cheek in a value 3, then you go to your premixed colors as you described them and mix together some of this color in value 3, then a little of that color in value 3, until you get the right color? I understand not mixing in a little of a value 2, for example, with this "3" mixture. Am I getting this right? Doesn't that mean you have to have a pretty huge palette surface? Daniel Greene's is huge, he had is specially made.

Thank you for this thought, it's good for me to remember that a shadow isn't just one color. Although . . . the down side here is that I can hardly figure out ONE good color to make a shadow and now you're telling me to find lots of good shadow colors. :)

Seriously though, I'll try and be more open minded when it comes to "seeing" the colors in the shadows.

Thank you very much,

Joan

Mixing?
 

Hi Renee,

Just out of curiousity, do you add a little ultramarine to get a cool flesh tone? I reviewed my notes on Paxton palette and ultramarine wasn't included in "complexion colors".

But this isn't the main point. It's all that mixing before hand that I'm trying to get my mind around. :) Is all the mixing done as a sort of fail safe way of staying within value ranges? Or is there some other reason? When I paint I first establish the values in either burnt sienna and a turp or raw umber and white. That's because I'm still learning and I think that's a good way to safely get my values correct. Is this the same thinking behind all the premixing and labeling the values?

thanks,

Joan

Relative warm and cool
 

Now that I just asked about adding blue to cool a flesh tone, I have found this thread started by Marvin called "warm and cool defined". This certainly answers my question about adding blue to cool a skin tone! Here is the link for anyone who may be following tihs thread and is interested:

http://forum.portraitartist.com/show...=values+paxton

Joan

Hi Joan,
A very interesting thread, it helps me a lot.

http://www.karinwells.com/technical2.htm

Karen gives a lot of important tips, in a nutshell. Interesting too: the memoirs of Vige

Hi Joan,

Sorry about that! You asked for one good shadow color and I handed you a bunch. There are no absolute right or wrong ways to paint; everybody has their own way. There are several phenomenal portrait artists in the world today and each one uses what works for him or her. Just because something works for one person doesn

Thank you Leslie
 

Hi Leslie,

Thanks for Karin's website. Believe me, I am very familiar with her homepage and have printed out everything on it. I'm not kidding. Plus, I think I've printed out most of her posts. Thank you Karin! :)

Joan

Warm and cool
 

[QUOTE=Renee Price] A color is only warm or cool in relation to the colors around them. A color that is

Hi Joan,

Even though color temperature is a good place to start with a painting, it can be overemphasized sometimes. Warm colors beside cool colors help to model the form and turn edges. In an area where there is not an obvious turning edge like the cheek of a young child for example, the transition of a warm 'reddish' skin tone to a cool 'reddish' skin tone suggests that the cheek is turning away from the viewer. Remember that the more obvious the transition the sharper the edge will appear. Color temperature changes paired with shadows give the illusion of depth.

I understand why you're confused. You're reading and trying to learn as much as possible so you will be able to paint 'right.' Am I right? I hate to tell you this, but there is no absolute 'right' way to paint. Everyone has their own opinions and use techniques that work for her or him. The longer and more a person paints, the more they learn--but not by getting everything right--but by getting things wrong. Everytime someone makes a mistake then finds a way to correct their mistake, the person learns what works and what doesn't. William Whitaker has said on his website, "Many people would like to paint, but not enough to paint those endless failures necessary to get to the good work."

To fast forward the learning process, find workshops that are taught by phenomenal artists who can not only create some of the best paintings on the planet, but who can TEACH as well. The investment will pay off ten-fold.

Good luck,

Renee

Ahh......We have come full circle to my original post about this subject.

: )

Thank you Renee!
 

Dear Renee,

Thank you so much for this insightful response! You are amazing, you really seem to understand the cool and warm concept AND you are good at explaining it. This one paragraph will help me immensely next time I stand before my easel.

Thank you again,

Joan

After pushing the send button, I realized my comment may come across the wrong way.

I do not wish, in any way shape or form to offend people on this forum.

My point in writing what I did was to say I agree 110% with Renee. A great painter / great teacher combination is worth more than you can imagine.

Sorry if I came across snotty.

Hi Joan,

I just returned from my two week Atlanta WS. I'll be posting the step by step demo I created there on my site shortly. It may prove helpful.

In my work and teaching I try to eschew all rules and paint from observation. I identify the hue, value and chroma of each shape of paint I want to place on the canvas. I believe that all preconceptions, such as alternating warms and cools, tend to inhibit my ability to see objectively. Others may find that certain rules such may work for them, but I'm explaining what I do here because it is my approach that has been called into play here.

I don't use ultramarine in my flesh with the exception of depicting reflected lights in the shadows or indicating certain makeup applications (circus clowns, war paint, etc.?). Many of my students will take what they learned from me and personalize it. I say if it works for you, then do it!

When I'm addressing problems that my students may be encountering I have rarely seen work where color alone is the problem. Shapes (drawing) and value errors are more often the source of the problem. Color is the least important element in painting.

Joan, I am not sure if this will be helpfu - my photos of my work are not the greatest, but I thought I would show some of the important things you can do without leaving home.

First, I did have the great opportunity of taking workshops, and one of them was Marvin's. His palette is very comprehensive but very simplified when compared to one like Daniel Greene's. It is hard to have really "bad skin" when using it. I do concur with Marvin that a lot of the problems are not color, but value and drawing.

Finally getting things to click for me, was a very intense but enjoyable study of Bouguereau using Marvin's palette. Many people think the reproduction studies of the "masters" are not of value, but once you get the paintings to offer a resemblance, you have learned tons. For myself it was a question of value, and how not to make the dark side darker, but work with the subtle changes of chroma and line to form the head. I can't tell you what a life changing event it was for me.

Although, I might not produce the effect or I should I say skill like the studies, I am very aware of what may be going off course, which I think is very important in the learning process.

Just to illustrate here are three samples; I apologize if they do not reproduce well, I know one person in particular who can attest to my bad photography skills of my paintings.

Values
 

Hi Marvin,

Thank you for your thoughtful answer. Since I have heard it more than once now, I think I need to take a step back and really work on my values. Though that's the reason I posted that charcoal drawing I did, to show that I can actually see the darks and lights and the full range between the two extremes. At least I thought I could.

I need to do some small studies and try to transfer the values I see (in black and white, or whatever monochromatic color I use) into color. And I keep hearing it but it's hard to believe that color isn't so important. My mind has a hard time getting used to that idea, but I hope some small studies will show me otherwise.

On another note, a color note, I guess one way to make cool flesh tones without blue would be to use a cool red? Until a couple of months ago I thought all reds were warm, except those with blue in them . . . . hmm, maybe if one uses a certain red it essentialy has blue built into it already? Obviously I think too much!

thank you again Marvin,

Joan

Great idea
 

Dear Elizabeth,

Wow, what great advice. Your post was very helpful. This is so obvously what I should do!

It's interesting that in your first painting and the third painting it seems like the values ranges aren't that different, but what a difference in the painting! The third one looks so much more three dimensional and alive. I would love to hear in your words why that is. The color isn't supposed to be so important, though the color is different in the third painting. I have a feeling you'll say it's the subtle changes within the face, but I would learn a lot from your explanation of how the third differs from the first painting.

BTW I think your paintings are great, you are very talented. Thank you for sharing these paintings and your thoughts.

Joan

Beth,

Those are beautuful little fragments. What a way you have come. I have been working with THE PALETTE from life, this summer, another biggie dancer, only in oil. Will post it when it is finished, fairly soon.

I would never have been able to do something so complex, color and design wise without it.

Beth is absolutely right about copying master works. One of my best learning experiences was copying the head and shoulders of 'Child at Bath' by Bouguereau. I learned so much, and recommend reproducing master paintings to anyone who wants to fast-forward their education.

I agree with Marvin about color being one of the last concerns. To attain a likeness the shapes must be right, for dimension and solidity the values must be right, and to make it breathe the color must be right. I'm attaching the underpaint of a portrait I'm working on now. Adding color will be the easiest part--getting the drawing and modeling right were the hard parts. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that color is easy because believe me it's not! I'm just saying that shapes and values are the most difficult and most important parts of a portrait.

As for underpaintings or wash-ins--the level of finish is up to the artist. I chose to leave a few hard edges that will be softened in the finished work, and chose to block in the collar and leave details for the end. Some people do more finishing in this stage, some do very little, and some people do not do underpaints or wash-ins at all. There are no absolute 'rights' or 'wrongs;' just use what works for you. :D

I hope this helps,

Renee

PS Janel, I didn't read your post as offensive toward anyone :)

Copying masters
 

Hi Renee,

What a lovely painting. I have an 'underpainting' of sorts that has been sitting in my studio for a year. I've attempted a couple of times to put the color on but haven't been successful, here it is. The next step for me is to copy some masters. And get to Marvin's class next summer, which has been my plan for a while. Meanwhile I'm sure I can learn a lot from copying masters and from people like you who share their knowledge and time on this forum. :) Then. . . . I'll get back to this little girl.

Thanks,

Joan

As long as this has evolved into a discussion about copying the Master's I am pleased to share my exciting news. I live five minutes away from an art museum that has an original Bougueureau and a Paxton. I was there this morning and I have been given permission to paint at the museum and copy what ever I wanted. I am so excited. I have heard such good things about the learning experience in doing so. My two older children will be in school soon and my son starts pre-school so for three hours, every day for the next nine months I will have MY TIME and I get to dedicate 100% to painting.

I've not had a chance to do this for over 20 years.

Pinch me, I think I am dreaming!!

Lucky girl!

Janel, you are so lucky!

I would love to just sit and stare at a Bougie, more less paint it from the real thing! Please post your progress.

Of course the fact that you will be free of kids might make you a lottery winner! :)

Lucky You
 

At the High Museum here in Atlanta they are really strange about the art considering the pickings are slim. They do not allow anyone to paint in the museum and when they do have a drawing session it's with a bunch of little kids with ruled notebook paper and No 2 pencils with little worn down erasers on the end of those No 2 pencils! YaY! And I mean YaY in the most sarcastic way! There is one painting at the High that I would camp out in front of and paint if they allowed me, that would be the last image that DeCamp painted,'The Mandarin Jacket' ! Poor guy really got it and then died. Isn't that the way it is? For what the High Museum lacks 'The Mandarin Jacket' makes up for it all!

If I were allowed your opportunity, kids or no kids, it would be every man for himself in my house! My family is becoming very accustom to frozen pizzas, Freezer Queen and Banquet Meals served with canned peas and mashed potatoes. Sad thing is, I am a retired chef , so I guess now I am truly retired!

I can not imagine how thrilled you must be. I wish you luck and hope that you have many revelations and that the Arc Angels sing from time-to-time for you as you paint.

For those who do not know of the 'Mandarin Jacket' I have posted it below. She would be a good one to study with the 'Paxton Palette'!

Boy! I mean, Girl! Are you lucky!!!!

Joan,

I'm glad I could help. :) It looks like you have a good start on this little one's face.

Janel,

Copying the masters is a great learning tool--especially if painting from the REAL thing! I am so excited for you!

Keep us updated you two!

Renee

Bouguereau book???
 

Hi everyone,

I was getting ready to order a Bouguereau book and I couldn't find the post that suggested a good edition. As I remember, a certain edition/publisher was recommended for having good reproductions. I thought it was on this thread either by Renee or Beth, but I've read over this thread 3 times and I can't find it. Help! Can anybody suggest a good Bouguereau book to copy from??

I have tried all kinds of searches, but I can't find it that way either.

Thanks,

Joan

Joan, the one I like is by Fronia E. Wissman, and is called "Bouguereau". It has a lot of wonderful color plates. You can find it at Amazon, or perhaps through the site here, in the book section.

Searching the Amazon
 

I hope that this link will take you to the answer to your question.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ex...&Search=Search

The Wissman book is the only one currently in print. There is a color catalog from a show in 1984 that is ridiculously expensive especially considering it has ten color plates.

Next year there will be a catalog raisonne released commemorating the centennial anniversary of his passing. I had the opportunity to meet the author, Damian Bartoli, several months ago. I'm really looking forward to seeing it in print. Meanwhile the one by Wissman is really good.