Palette drying too fast
 

Hello all,

This may seem like a dumb question, but here it is. How do you paint a portrait, which could takes weeks, without your palette drying out? I am working on the biggest portrait I have attempted so far. After a week I scaped off my palette to clean it. Actually, only the raw umber was completely dry, but my other mixes were starting to get rubbery.

I suppose one technique is to paint the face, then follow with 'scumbles'. Or, just paint the face over and over again, which is what I would end up doing if I had to remix my skin tones from a fresh palette.

For a while I didn't have raw umber or burnt sienna on my palette but they're back now. As I understand it, these colors dry faster than others. I am trying out the Paxton palette so I don't have any cadmiums on my palette.

Any tips on this would be VERY helpful. Thank you.

Joan

There is a thread discussing this problem here

Thanks
 

Chuck,

Thank you for that thread. I did a search but obviously wasn't using the right words because I got a bunch of other threads. :)

Joan

Joan,

Here are some additional thoughts.

1. The tubed earth colors dry fast. You can mix any of the hues from a primary/secondary palette. (I am not shy about cadmiums, so I don't know how helpful this tip will be for a cadmium free palette. Check out Stephen Quiller's color wheel and charts - you don't need to necessarily use cads to make earth colored colors.)

2. Clove oil will retard the drying of everything on your palette.

3. Flake white dries faster than Titanium.

4. Paints ground in Linseed oil dry faster than paints ground in poppyseed or safflower oil, and the slowest drying of all are paints ground in Walnut oil ( M Graham)

5. Some mediums will slow drying time, some will speed it up. Actually there was an article in (I think) last month's (June,2004 probably) Artist or American Artist Magazine on just this topic. I'll try to hunt it down.

I actually use paints and mediums that dry so quickly I routinely scrape off my palette and put out fresh colors by noon each day. If there is a dry passage on my painting, I 'wet' it with some medium or light retouch varnish; then it is not so difficult to paint into a previously painted surface, nor to match the colors well. I think Peggy B uses Poppyseed oil to 'wet" a dry surface. The only time I really re-paint areas (other than to fix mistakes!) is where I need to manage edge transitions.

If anyone has more precise information on this topic, please don't be shy.

Ellen McElwaine sang a song called "Everyone wants to go to heaven but nobody wants to die." Another way of putting this is that you can't have your cake and eat it too.

We would all like to have a palette that never dries and a painting that will be dry the next day. Unfortunately the things that slow the drying of paint make for a weaker paint film. Clove oil as well as poppy and walnut oils have a negative effect on the bonding of the paint with the ground. Linseed oil is far superior.

I bite the bullet and set out a fresh palette each day or two. Fresh paint is far superior in building a better painting. Traditionally artists built each area with a limited palette of colors necessary for that area. I do a similar thing. I hop from area to area and cover the canvas with each later. After I've made my rounds I repeat the progression with my next layer. I try to give at least a week between layers in any given area so the paint will cure.

I also think it is to the painting's advantage to remix the colors for each layer. The variations in each mixture mirror the subtle variations in nature and older layers coming through help to create a more realistic and atmospheric effect.

I think it's better to adapt your working method to the sound properties of your medium instead of trying to alter the natural tendencies of your paints and mediums. So many great paintings were done with a palette similar to Paxton's that I don't think it should be considered as limiting.

From the thread that Chuck found I have learned about tubing my own paints. You people are brilliant! I always thought I needed to mix up fresh paint each time and maybe I do, but, the possibility of having the same basic flesh colors for the life of the painting would be a nice 'security blanket' for me. Though, after lots of thought and reading the new posts above, there is something to layering with newly mixed colors.

Chris,

Thank you for all the valuable information.

This is interesting. I can not imagine scarping off my palette every day. Then you remix the colors the next day? Could I use Liquin as my medium if I needed to wet an area?

I just painted a little girl and after working for 3 or 4 days, I scraped off everything. Her face wasn't right yet, my paint on the canvas was getting sticky and I couldn't move it around. Recently I had seen some JSS's at the Met and Boston MFA and I love the way those paintings are so rich with paint. When I paint, the paint sort of 'sinks' into the canvas. Blah. So, I thought to get the rich luxurious look, I would use lots of paint. I got carried away. My paint was way too thick, it was probably 1/8" thick and I couldn't get it to be smooth on her face, which I wanted. To compound the problem I've scaped off paint more than once and I even sanded old paint off the face once so I have a surface as smooth as glass now. I started with linen canvas and 2 coats of primer.

So, this brings me to painting thin layers and letting them dry inbetween. Hmm. I have always tried to work wet into wet and I just keep working at it until, viola!, I'm happy with it and then I step away and don't touch it again.

Marvin,

Thank you for your post. As usual, I think there is a wealth of information in your post but I'm just not able to grasp all of it. I'm trying though, I've reread your post half a dozen times and I'm trying to formulate my questions so I have a better response than "Huh?".

See, I thought it would be heaven if the palette AND canvas would just stay wet for about a month, or at least 2-3 weeks. Then I could keep working at the painting and adjusting this or that value and color, and then finally work out the details. Then I would be done and I would wave my magic wand and it would dry. But, from reading your post and thinking about it, and studying your website and the demo there, I think this is not the best way to approach a portrait. It must not be because it's not working for me!

Therefore the answer must be to paint the face the best I can, then leave it alone for it to dry. Then come back and make further adjustments with another layer. Would you say this next layer is actually a scumble? I think you would use zinc white because it's more transparent (?). But without a medium to thin down the paint, isn't this the same as just repainting the face?

I think I'm almost there with understanding this so please bare(sp?) with me. It's interesting how this process is coming about through trial and error for me. I would be lost without all the help I get on this forum.

Thank you again Chris and Marvin,

Joan

Chris, you have got to be talking about Studio Product's Underpainting Medium, which I tried for the first time today. I've never tried a medium which set up so fast.

Joan, there's a lot written about Liquin if you do a search on the Forum. Personally, I don't use it as a medium anymore.

The reason to let your paints dry and then to paint over them is to allow you to employ paint in different ways. You can scumble (paint without medium over dried paint) or glaze (paint suspended in medium). Each allows for subtleties arguably not achieved in a strictly alla prima method.

I keep my biggish blobs of paint in a Tupperware container in the freezer. I don't save my mixtures, usually because I've fiddled with them too much, but I think there's a lot of merit in what Marvin says: bringing a fresh mind to contemplate the colors in the mixture for the next day's work is a good thing.

I assume this is a compliment? If so, thanks!

Extra! Extra! Read all about it: Sargent worked in layers! His portrait of the deceased son (can't remember his name) of Asher Wertheimer is unmitigated proof of this. It's been documented that he scraped off heads as much as fifty times. Just because something looks spontaneous doesn't mean it is. JC Leyendecker< arguably the greatest American Illustrator did a practice painting where he worked out literally every brush stroke prior to commencing on his finished painting.

What's my point? Things are not always what they appear! Preconceived notions only serve to limit your possibilities. The fact that poppy oil creates a weaker paint film didn't stop Philip de Laszlo from using it. If only we could all paint that well. The main thing is to find what works for you and develop your own style. If painting into wet soup doesn't suit you try layers.

The thing to keep in mind that one can paint in layers and each layer can be painted wet into wet. I start each new layer with scumbling and paint into the scumble with wet paint. I am repainting the head but I allow what's under to come through and then I refine it, in much the same way a sculptor keeps refining smoothness with finer cuts.

If I want thinner paint I'll add some linseed oil or a mixture of 40% cold pressed linseed, 40% Gamsol and 20% stand oil.

Layers
 

Linda,

You put this so eloquently! But, if you scumble over something, how is this different from just painting over it if there is no medium involved? Is it just that's it very thin and you can see the paint underneath it?

I think I've read every word Karin Wells has written about glazing and scumbling but since I don't use the underpainting method (I did give it a try) I didn't think there was a place for scumbling. I like the idea that there is a place for it but I'm not clear exactly on how to employ this method. Are you doing the painting first, letting it dry, then subsequently adding scumbles until you have the painting where you want it to be?

Joan

p.s. I think pretty soon this'll turn into another topic. Maybe this discussion should be in another place?

I think I've got it
 

Thank you Marvin for replying. Yes, that was meant to be a compliment. You think art on a higher plane so I need to read your words very carefully to grasp the full meaning.

I tried layers but I tried it in the manner of underpainting. I thought there were two ways to paint, underpainting or alla prima. Underpainting didn't seem spontaneous enough for me at the time and the looseness of alla prima appealed to me. So, I tried wet into wet. Now I'm learning there seems to be a combination of the two!

When you say you paint into the scumble with wet paint, I'm assuming the scumble is over paint that has dried. In essence, you are creating a wet environment by putting on the scumble first? I think I get it.

I guess painting with 'layers' is different from the underpainting method because with underpainting the original underpainting done in raw umber and white (or whatever combination people use) shows through the glazes. But, with 'layers', the original painting, or first layer is completely obscured by additional layers? Have I got this right?

Thanks again, I would be learning portrait painting in a vacuum without the generous posts on this forum!

Joan

Actually, I didn't. I brusquely summarized some quite technical painting terms. (Marvelous Marvin knows this and is kindly not pointing this out. He is very knowledgable about scumbling and layered paint effects.)

Technically speaking, as I understand the terms, a scumble (which contains white) lightens what is underneath it and a glaze darkens it.

Reasonable minds have discussed the terms at length at http://forum.portraitartist.com/show...ight=scumbling and elsewhere on this Forum.

Linda, you're too kind, but flattery will get you anywhere.

Joan, You're getting a better idea but I think you're still stuck trying to differentiate between two seemingly opposite approaches.

I do put a scumble down as a base to paint wet into, but not all the time. Sometimes I paint over dry and sometimes over an oiled out section. Sometimes I let my underpainting show through. Sometimes intermediate layers show. Although my approach may be mistakenly viewed by many as being too methodical. In truth, it really allows me to be quite spontaneous. I do what works and at times I discover new techniques after my brush a has shown me the way. I discover new things about painting all the time. Ultimately discipline provides the greatest freedom.

Transparent or opaque?
 

Hi Linda,

Thank you so much for that thread. I actually did read that about 2 weeks ago but now I've printed it out. So much to remember!

I do have one question. With a scumble, should I be paying attention to whether I'm using transparent colors or opaque colors? I've read a lot of Karin Wells posts and with glazing, it seems very important to glaze with transparent colors. But, does it matter with scumbles?

Thank you,

Joan

Methods
 

Thank you for your post Marvin. Are you saying they're not opposite approaches? Should I forget about trying to make them different and just meet in the middle, which seems to be where this is leading?

Methodical is good. I have an engineering degree and the main reason I got into engineering was because it was methodical. Methodical works for me. Perhaps that is why I'm trying so hard to name everything and find a place in my process for everything.

I think the best thing for me to do now is to just do it. I need to paint a portrait and use the 'layering' technique.

But, am I not back to the 'underpainting' method? I am comfortable painting a monochromatic portrait. With this step I can get my values correct. If the world were in black and white I'd be great. Too bad I can't be done with that first step! Then the next step is adjusting color. I realize most artists combine these two steps but I'm not proficient enough to place down value and color correctly at the same time. After my layer of color I can proceed to adjust the color with layers of scumbling. (Maybe glazing, whatever is necessary.) I feel comfortable I could do this. But, isn't this the 'underpainting' method?

I suppose it doesn't matter what the method is called, as long as it works.

Thank you everyone for sharing your wisdom on this subject!

Joan

Last thought
 

One more thought. I guess I understood that with the underpainting method one paints the underpainting and then adds glazes. No scumbles, just glazes. The glazes made the painting darker. So that means the final painting would never be lighter anywhere than the original underpainting. The underpainting had to be lighter everywhere than the final painting would end up being.

That's probably not right though, is it? Why have a technique that is so limiting. No wonder that method didn't work for me when I tried it.

Hmmph.

Joan

There are many types of under-painting. I have a demo on my site from a workshop in Atlanta last year at http://www.fineartportrait.com/workshop_demo.html Maybe this will strike a chord?

I assume you went to school for a number of years to become an engineer. Is art any less legitimate than engineering? I would suggest you consider taking a workshop that would clarify a sound working procedure. I could probably recommend someone if you're interested ;-)

Demo
 

Hi Marvin,

Thank you for your reply. I have studied that demo a number of times. I know it would be so much better in person. The subtle changes from one picture to the next are almost to subtle for me to see.

Yes, it did take me a long time to get that engineering degree . . . for all the good it's doing me now. But that's a different story.

Believe me, I'm trying to get to your workshop and I've e-mailed with Haleh regarding this. (Oh, did you mean your workshop when you said you could recommend somebody? You're too subtle! ;) ) My biggest obstacle is that I have 2 kids at home during the summer so it's hard for me to be away for a week. During the school year when they're in school all day would be easier for me to disappear for a week, but alas, I don't believe you offer any workshops during the school year. I'm probably not the only potential student faced with that problem but since you teach regular classes during the school year it's probably impossible for you to offer a week long workshop during the same time. But I'll continue to work on it.
.
Thanks again,

Joan

Workshop
 

Marvin,

Are the week long classes you offer at the School of Visual Arts the same format and content as the off-site workshops? I'm asking because I've read so many positive comments on the forum about the off-site workshops.

Thanks,

Joan

Hi Joan,

Every thing I do, in terms of my teaching, comes from the same place, my ideas about the painter's mindset and relating painting techniques to that mindset. The workshops at SVA are exactly the same format as the out of town ones. The only difference is that one of my SVA workshops is oriented towards figure painting while all my others are portrait workshops. In my ongoing classes I usually have both figure and portrait setups.

I actually think that painting the figure can be more helpful in regards to learning portraiture. The angles and shapes are much more obvious. Traditionally the figure was always studied first. In the past I have seen incredible progress when people have taken both the figure and directly followed with the portrait workshop in a two week period. It's very intense.

In May I did two one week workshops. Below I've enclosed a week two workshop painting by new student Lori Hey, who did both weeks. The second weeks progress seems geometric. Lori regular medium is pastels, so working in oil was a very new experience for her.

Regardless of what form of study (classes or workshops) people choose to experience, they seem to derive great benifit. My main objective is to transform how people think about painting. This is why I always take my NY students to the Met each semester. I like to point out what I believe is irrifutable evidence as to the mindset of all great realistic painters. This is the one great advantage to attending a NY workshop. My out of town workshop students have to settle for a slide lecture. Nothing comes close to seeing the real paintings.

My figure workshop starts July 19th a week from tommorrow. If anyone is interested, they should register asap. The portrait workshop starts July 26. The Met trip is July 25, sandwiched between both workshops. The School of Visual Arts phone # is 212-592-2050.