Photographic Adventure
 

Greetings,

And welcome to a forum

And let the search begin

Ok, Mike I have a question, am I looking for the place with the BEST natural light OR the place with the best natural light from ONE source?

There are three places in my house that I tend to take all of my pictures. One is in Liza's room. It is a tiny room (9.5x14) but an exterior corner room facing south the two exterior walls have a double and triple window, so the light is coming in from two sides of a corner.
It is the brightest room in the house.

The other is my dining room, it is a much darker room with one large window facing north. However there is a Magnolia tree the size of Texas in my front yard that doesn't let the light come in like it should.

The third is on my Sunroom and it has windows all the way around three walls.

SO, that said, does my question make sense?

The preferred set up is a single source of light. When light fills the room from more than one direction you loose the shadows. You have to preserve the shadows.

First of all, I don't like the idea of the room with windows on two walls. Can you completely block the light from one window? If so choose the window on the long wall.

My suggestion would be to cut down the Magnolia tree.

If you refuse, I would test this north facing light anew. I would bet that on bright days there is ample light for your purpose. In any case you probably have enough light for the "light" side of the face, and we may at some point down the road, talk about augmenting the ambient light. Take a look at the attached photo. My guess is that you're North light window would produce something like this. Adequate light on the North, very little ambient light on the South. Later on we will get into how to make this work.

Next, I would test the sunroom. If the fourth side of this room is a wall (worst case), you could try blocking the light on both sides of this wall to move the light source more toward the single lit wall opposite the solid wall. Then move your subject back toward the solid wall as far as you can. If this fourth side is not a wall but open to another room, then move the subject just outside the sunroom such that the sunroom becomes just one big window.

You have to create a situation where the light is traveling sideways into your space, toward the shadow side.

Don't discount the possibility that there may be other situations. Look at the spaces in your house as if you had just walked into a strangers house. This will happen to you someday, this is really what you are preparing yourself to do. You've got to root something out.

So make your investigation, try our little exercise with what you think is your best shot. You don't need to worry about taking any photos at this point, just the observation exercise will be sufficient.

Hey Mary,

Up there, where I said that about not seeking perfection, I think that's mostly bunk. Truth be known, I'm always trying to make it perfect. The thing is, the target is constantly shifting, the light is moving up and down the scale and the scene keeps changing. So we do what we can.

Just thought I should adjust the record.

Mike, after looking around and taking your directions into consideration, I finally settled on the dining room. It is the only spot in the house with only one source of light. Because I have been doing this exercise early in the morning, the room itself is very dark at this time of day, not to mention the walls are painted black so there isn't much light bouncing off of walls. Being 5-7 feet back in that room resulted in very muted light, and while I could Identify aspects of your diagram, I needed to move toward the window about 3 feet to get more visible results. Once there it was interesting to see that just the slightest variation in movement resulted in quite a different "picture" should I have chosen to sketch it. I don't think I have ever thought that much about it before. If I moved too close to the light the whole hand seemed illuminated, and reminded me almost of looking at a picture of a hand taken with a flash, to move it farther away from my midpoint, while I could obviously still see the hand there were no shadows of interest. However while standing in the chosen spot approximately 3 feet, maybe 4 from the window, I could definitely see rounded forms all over my hand and arm that resembled your diagram. Each little part on my hand, the finger tips, the knuckles etc, had their own little areas of light zones and shadow zones. I then pulled a white blanket into that dark pit of a room and placed beside me opposite the window. The results were very similar, however it added more of a "glow" to the underside of the shadow zones.

The question was once posed ...

Reflecting light
 

I

Mike, I have come back to that room at various times in the day. And there honestly doesn't seem to be that much difference in any of the day light hours. I also walked around other rooms at the same time and they all seemed pretty consistent. I think this is due to being on a very shady lot?

The black room, oddly enough seems as lit as the light green kitchen when looking only at my hand and not paying attention to the room itself. I think this is because there are so many mirrors (4) hanging in that dining room reflecting light.

I do, and will take pictures in my home, however the only places I would allow them in my house would be my living room, dining room, or covered porch. So I "need" to learn how to make these spaces work. However, I also understand the need to be able to make strange places work. What would you suggest I do from here?

Thanks Mary,

Your theory regarding the shaded lot is probably correct.

I know that you have a beautiful statue. In your best lighting conditions, I would like for you to center this statue in the dinning room window about 4-5 feet back. I don't want you to have it right up next to the window. Position yourself such that your shooting angle is 90 degrees to the window. Also, try not to shoot down at or up to the subject, but more horizontal. I would like to see just how much ambient light is in the room. My guess is not much, but the mirrors may factor in a positive way. If the statue is not movable try using a vase on a stand. In fact try both if you can.

Then, just to give us something to compare to, take the vase into the room with two windows and place it using your best judgment. Using the same camera perspective in relation to the light, show us the vase from the two rooms.

For this second room, try and determine your strongest light, and set up for it. Maybe you could somewhat restrict the secondary light if necessary.

Ok, I got the statue done, only to remember you wanted me to try both after I got back to the computer. I will do the vase for you too but it may be tomorrow before I get a chance.

The first image is in the dining room, 5 feet from the north facing window. Since you asked to cut down on the background noise, I used a sheet as a back drop. If you would prefer I not do that, let me know and when I do the vase for you I won't use it.

The second image is in front of a South facing window that is NOT blocked by shade in my son's bedroom. It is also 5 feet from the window.

Mary,

What I really want is to see how the rooms existing ambient light affects the subject, without introducing any other reflected light such as the sheet. Don't worry about the background noise for now.

Nice images.

Wow, what a difference an hour makes! I got the baby to bed, so decided to try it with the sugar bowl. (sorry, couldn't find a plain vase)

This bowl is in the exact same spot, taken with the exact same setting, but at 3:30 instead of 2:30. And WHY so blue? (this is an issue I can not figure out how to fix with this camera, maybe it is time to look at that gray card )

I didn't see that much of a difference in the two taken at 2:30, but this is blatant.

A HIGHER AUTHORITY

In my first post I tried to make the point several times that our mission was to define form with light. Just for the record, I am not the first to show this concern.

Consider this - not buried somewhere in Deuteronomy, but here above the fold, page one, top left:

That

I didn't see your other post when I posted the sugar bowl. Shall I wait until tomorrow to do this without the sheet at about the same time? Obviously an hour made a difference.

However, I do have a question. What difference does it make if there is a sheet there or not? I realize that the sheet reflects light and so on, but who is to say it couldn't be a white couch etc.? For that matter, the two chairs that I used to sit the statue on were actually all white, (and the carpet in my son's room is white also) but it made for a busy picture so I just threw the sheet there to make it simple.

What I am trying to do is eliminate all influences of light except that which comes through the window.

Obviously the room will, because of whatever reflective quality it has, affect the shadow side of the subject. This is what I'm trying to find out. If we can establish the base known attributes, such as strength of the light source, and amount of ambient light (shadow quality), then we can devise a plan to modify either of those factors if need be.

With the white sheet being so near and so prevalent in the background, the outcome is altered substantially. We may at some point bring something like this to bear, but first I would like to understand our two basic components, namely, the lit side and the shadow side, without influence.

And tomorrow is just fine, don't ever feel like you have to rush.

Macro vs. Micro
 

I have a theory about this sort of work. It has been my observation that most people who have difficulty getting good photo reference use the

Gotchya..I just had a light bulb moment. :thumbsup:

Mary,

Can you give me a sense of how big your statue is, height and width? Also your sugar bowl, roughly.

Yes, the statue is approximately 1.5' tall and the base is 7"x8.5", (and weighs as much as I do) and the sugar bowl is a little over 3 inches.

Mike, sorry I didn't get this done over the weekend, it was SO overcast I just didn't think it was a good time to do it.

I took all of these in the same spots as before, at 11:15.
The first of each in the dining room, the second of each in the bedroom.

Mary,

How do you account for the wide variance in light from image #1 to image #3? Both of these were taken in your dining room right?

For images #1 and #3 (dining room), I assume the chest is against a wall, how much room do you have behind you? Could you bring the subject away from the chest and still have room to work?

Mike, I do NOT know, yes they were in the exact same spot one right after the other. Using the same automatic setting on the tripod. I was hoping you could explain that.

And there is a LITTLE room for play, but not much, if I move too much further back I will go away from the window. It actually isn't as close to that chest as it looks. The chair was about a foot and a half from the chest, maybe more.

Mary,

To save us from getting spun off into a technical direction I think we'll call that odd shot an anomaly and move on.

What I get from these shots is that you have plenty of light.

What I would like to show you at this point is what a 16x20 grayish white canvas used as a reflector can do. I was matching the size of the reflector to the size of the subject here, you could of course use a larger one if need be. I think I prefer the bumpy off white surface of the canvas over the slick white surface of a piece of foamcore. I think it throws off a softer more diffuse light.

These three images were all taken within a few minutes of each other. Notice that the subject never moved. For image #1 there was no use of the reflector, for image #2 the reflector was about twenty-four inches from the subject off camera to our right, for image #3 the reflector was as close as I could get it just out of frame.

Would you try this:

Place your statue out from the chest as much as you can and still be in the line of the light. With your camera on the tripod, place the camera as before in relationship to the subject, ninety degrees off the direction of the light.

After you get the subject framed, make sure that your zoom indicates no less than 70mm, a little more would be better. If you cannot achieve this, then back the subject up (back yourself up) and produce enough distance between the two of you so that you can achieve that 70+mm.

Now, with your camera set on timer, or, using an assistant, do as I have done in the examples below. Your first image should be without any reflective aid, the second, third and fourth if you want, should show increasingly more light reflected onto the shadow side.

PS: Mary, it looks like you may benefit from slightly over exposing your subject about a half to one f stop. If you remember.

PPS:
I think these highly polished props show a bit of a burn out on the light side, my guess is that this same light would show pretty good against skin. But either way, we observe and adjust.

Mike, Sorry I didn't get to this yesterday..I don't have a clue what you are talking about once you get to the above quoted point.(Though I can guess) I didn't even know my camera indicated (which I'm sure it does) how far I was zooming and I certainly don't have a clue about a half to one f stop. I'm not sure I made myself clear when I told you I totally rely on everything automatic on this camera. Which is why I am looking for a local photography course to take.

That said, about the shots I'm to take. I am assuming you are just wanting me to find something similar to what you describe and for each shot hold it at varying distances opposite the light source?

I'm going to go give this a shot now, just letting you know in advance, you are dealing with a dimwit.

Ok, let's see if I am following your directions. I placed the statue where you asked and got as far from the statue as possible (Approximately 8ft) and zoomed in as much as possible.

The first image was with no reflector and each following image is with the reflector a bit closer. You will notice that the second image seems a bit brighter over all than the other three. The only thing I can figure is that it is a partly cloudy day and that was taken when the sun was in full force vs. the other three may not have been. (Perhaps that is the same explanation for that other oddly bright photo?)

Sorry Mary, I had a dim bulb moment.

Can you tell me what kind of camera you have been using? At one point I thought you were using a Canon EOS Rebel film camera, but you seem to be turning these images around pretty quickly so I'm thinking you've got a digital.

I do have a Rebel, but am using my digital for these. Here is my digital.. http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/spec...ixs602zpro.asp

Mary,

That looks like a really nice camera.

About zoom lenses ..

Your camera indicates the ability to zoom from a wide angle of 35mm, to telephoto of 210mm. If you look on the top side of your lens you should see these two extremes, and points in between, indicated. As you zoom in or out the number indicated on top will be the degree of telephoto that you are using.

You may have read elsewhere on the forum about lens distortion, this happens most of the time when you try and use the wide angle (lowest number) end of the lens' range. I just wanted you to stay away from that low end and the distortion that it can create.

As far as the f stop business, we can forget that for the time being.

You've done a good job with these images. Clearly the first image shows some of the off side in total darkness. And, in the subsequent efforts you have brought some light into the shadows.

I think we are ready to ditch the naked lady and go for some real flesh and bone.

I would like for you to consider this next part and report back with your thoughts.

I know you have three young children and they are handy, but, I would like to know if there is an older person that you could enlist? Someone that you could use and go back to for additional tries if need be.

Mike, I have been thinking all morning about who I could possible use as a model. I just can't come up with anyone that would be available more than once at the same time I would need them.

As far as the kids go, yes, I have 3 warm bodies, but only one of them would pose as told within reason. So he may be an option. The other two are strictly moving targets.

Mary,

Let's devise a plan for your son.

Basically what we will do is replace the statue with your son.

I noticed that you have open back dining room chairs. Let me see if I can suggest a pose. With your camera set up as it was, place your chair such that your son would be sitting facing the camera. Now, rotate the chair about 45 degrees clockwise. Now, sit your son sideways in the chair so that he is facing to your right of the camera. From this position he should be able to grasp the vertical rail of the chairback with both hands, one on top of the other as if it were a baseball bat.

As far as the reflected light -- with your son in this position you should be able to hold the reflector yourself with your left hand just off camera on your left. You should position the reflector somewhat in front of your son and not purely to the side. Anytime you use these reflectors you have to allow the light a direct path to it and not let the subject block out the light.

With your son sitting in this position, direct his nose to a position off to the right of the camera (not much, use your best judgment), then direct his eyes back to the camera. And with his chin up, take this half figure shot.

There's all kinds of variations on this pose that you can experiment with. What I like about it is that it gives you the ability to incorporate the hands into the composition in a natural sort of way.

Mostly what we are trying to achieve here is a pleasing light pattern. The pose is really secondary at this point. To this end you should be taking notice of how bright the lighting conditions are at the time you are setting up to shoot. Just make the adjustment toward, or away from, the window. Good luck and know that the future of the forum, and the entire internet, is riding on you.

Did I mention that the winner of the "Photo Adventure" sweepstakes will win this new Lexus hardtop convertible?

Just mail in $75,000 for each raffle ticket and sit back and cross your fingers. We will be giving away three of these fabulous cars for each five entries we receive.

Ok, you nut case, here is my oldest daugther Marcy...UM, I mean son Marc ;)

I tried my best to follow directions, an assistant would make this much easier. Trying to explain to him to "do this and that and NOT move while Mommy comes at you with a big white thing because the timer is about to go off"was testy. But since I paint nothing but children, I suppose I need to learn to do this on my own.

The first image was without the reflector the second was with it as you describe. Can you tell a difference?

Mary,

That's the sweetest looking boy I've ever seen.

Before we go any further I would like for you to give me some of the camera settings you've been using.

1) ISO? -- should start at 160 and then 200, 400 etc.
2) resolution? -- (2832 x 2128)?, (640 x 480)? other?

Have you been using manual or auto focus?

And, what are you using for a reflector, size, color?

ISO setting
 

It may be useful to give an explanation of "ISO." When operating in low indoor lighting conditions this feature becomes meaningful.

When using a film camera it was necessary to prejudge your lighting conditions before you loaded the camera with film. If you were going to spend the day outside in the sunlight you would choose a slow film such as a 100 ASA . Or, if you were going to a track meet and you wanted to

Mike, I usually use the automatic setting. Shouldn't that take care of ISO automatically?

However, I just pulled out the camera and it was set in P mode, so I have a feeling those last photos were taken in that setting in which case the ISO, from what I could tell, was set at 400. Let's assume I inadvertently did have it set in "P" mode, should I have had it set on 160?

As for resolution, it was set on the lowest resolution, I will switch it to the highest. Technology is just too much for me sometimes. :bewildere

Mary,

I don

:D , I'm sorry Mike, but look at it this way, if you can get me to do this right under the circumstances, imagine what I will be able to do under optimal circumstances.

Mary,

At some point you may want to investigate some ready made reflectors. The Photoflex Company offers a wide range of equipment to assist the photographer, including reflectors and stands.

Mary,

As you go about your work make it one of your goals to get a good close up of your subjects face. Also, if there are other important details of the composition, close ups of these features can make your life so much easier.