Membership fees for Forum access
 

For quite some time, I've considered making this Forum available only to those who pay a nominal annual fee. The fees would help defray some of the costs of maintenance, hosting and keeping this Forum at a high quality.

Free membership would be a benefit for all Stroke of Genius main site members and moderators. Consideration would be given to hardship cases and students.

Please take the poll and give your opinion. You are also free to offer your suggestions.

Hi Cynthia -

Just bouncing around the concept and looking for some clarification on how the fee would potentially work... Would the fee be required to access the forum at all (as in to just read postings)?, or would the fee be required only of those who want to actively participate/post?

Fee to be able to read?
On the one hand, it'd be nice to know that my clients couldn't stumble upon some ignorant :o sounding question I may have posted (who me?)! On the other hand, if I hadn't been able to browse around a bit before jumping in, I wouldn't have known just how amazing this site is! How would potential new members know what was here?

Fee only to be able to post?
Would some be more inclined to only read rather than actively participate?

Just curious about what you're envisioning... and how it might affect the dynamics of the forum community? I do see this forum as a valuable resource and don't think it's unreasonable that you consider charging a fee.

I'd certainly be willing to pay a hefty fee -- after all, this site has quite literally launched my career. However, I think the amount of participation from others could drop off dramatically, reducing its value to everyone. It would still be worth quite a few bucks to me, though, even if just to access the archives!

Terri,

I'm not quite sure yet, but I considered a lower fee just to be able to read and a higher fee to have posting privileges.

Also, from what I see in the stats, it seems there are far more people reading than there are registered members.

Over the existence of the Forum, the storage requirements have become huge and everyone who accesses a page, contributes to the total monthly bandwidth.


Michele,

You said that less people participating would lessen the value. That may or may not be.

However, you wouldn't believe the number of people who apply, submit their info and two images for approval, get approved and then never bother to get involved. This ends up being a disappointing expenditure of time and energy on the part of the Board and myself. Charging a fee would discourage this type of thing and help to free up some of my time for more valuable activities.

Also, as a moderator and SOG member, you would get free membership, but I appreciate your wonderful validation and all your contributions as a volunteer moderator.

At the moment (and for some number of years) I have continued memberships in organizations and groups whose meetings I just can never seem to make, whose programs aren't relevant to portrait painting, or whose competitions tend toward non-representational emphasis. I spend almost $200 a year for these, and believe me, the information I can learn on the Forum is worth ten times the value of any of these other memberships.

I also look at the number of books I end up buying, and only a very few are those I would read a second time.

I would happily drop one or two memberships, or one or two art books, in favor of the Forum fee, regardless of whether it's read-only or posting participation.

Personally, I think all Internet forums should be free, regardless of topic. The Internet was intended as a free space, and even after rampant commercialization, most education and edifying spaces are still free. Yippee.

Surely there are many benefits to being a participant, and I am not disparaging that in any way. Also, I recognize that there are loads of tasks involved in the upkeep of membership and maintenance.

Aside from those facets, there are many benefits to you to be derived from free access, including the credibility it brings your organization, to prove that such luminaries trust you enough to spend a lot of their free time conversing around here. Anyone can find that out on their own, without an initial contact with you directly. Additionally, since many of the Forum folks are also in your galleries, hits to this Forum will inevitably lead to the galleries, and to your home page.

I don't think it's a good idea. And if you still don't believe me, do a google search on my name and read the article I wrote (in favor) on the subject, right before my company went belly up.

Sure, I'm happy when I can find the information I want without having to pay. But, if it's information that's really important and valuable to me, I don't begrudge paying because I know the amount of work it takes to put together and maintain a web site. For ages, the people who created this Forum software keep telling me I need to upgrade to the most current version. I've not done it through many upgrades simply because I can't seem to find the time to reapply all the customizations I did to make the Forum look like my main site.

I'm not sure that what the Internet was originally intended as is so important at this point since it's evolved so much beyond that. It's original intended use was for the government.

I don't think you have any idea how much work.

No doubt having this Forum brings some additional credibility over what was already there. But, many people knew and respected me already because of my years managing a portrait artist. And, many more came to know me through my attendance at the portrait society shows.

The number of Forum members who are also my clients on the main site are actually very few - maybe 10% of the membership and most of those are not actively posting. Though I have gotten a few new clients from the Forum, the number is small compared to the amount of time put into creating and maintaining it.

Please give me a direct address if you would like me to read this.

Cynthia,

I find that these type questions can be more easily addressed when there is a well defined "statement of purpose" or "mission statement."

What may be a unique aspect of your situation is that your mission statement may be very different than mine, as it relates to our involvement in this forum.

More and more there are times, while surfing the net, that I come across sites that requires me to whip my credit card and pay a fee for entry or membership (and no, not just that blondes under sixty site). There may well be some wealth of knowlege just on the other side of the gate, but, how would I know? My tendency is to say "have a nice day."

When I became a member of the forum, as best I can recall, all I did was type my name and give a few other innocuous details about myself. It required no interview, no vetting of my work, no time expended on anyone's part. I would ask today, what was wrong with that method? Who are we trying to keep out and why?

The question "why are we here" is not that complicated for most of the participants of this forum. The question "why are you here" may be more difficult to answer. I think if you had a firmer grip on that answer you might be better equipped to answer the question you have posed here. I would offer two words: synergy and altruism.

Well, Cynthia, it sounds like you've made up your mind already, and are kind of ticked off about it to boot, so I don't know what else I can say.

Yet, that's never stopped me before, so here I go again:

Instead of paying for whole access, you might consider creating a 2-tier model. Part would be free, and value-added services would be for pay. You could probably get a lot more than $30/year for some of the best parts of this site, and you would have a larger stream of people interested because they weren't turned away at the front door. Critiques I think are incredibly valuable. Steven does them for free, I'm guessing (bless his heart), but a $40 fee for a critique by a panel of "experts" sounds fair to me. Of course, you'd have to pay the experts too.

Online, there aren't nearly as many demos as I wish there were. I think lots of us wish there were more demos. A live demo or workshop would be a for-fee event that could either be in a forum topic, or in a live webcast. A topic of ample, well-done demos is something I would be happy to pay for as subscription.

There are some things I can never seem to get my hands on - Richard Schmid's book, Daniel Greene's videos, Peggy's videos. A kind of lending library would be something I would pay for.

You could add more portal-type services, links to more books, supplies, etc. Try CommissionJunction.com. You'll get commissions on those sales.

Also, I think you might just ask for contributions. It seems like lots of people would be inclined to give it to you.

I'm not sure what part of your business model this Forum would be... I can see it as a marketing expense, and then you'd have to assess its effectiveness for you. But as a private paid-for service, I don't think it would add anything to your brand identity, and would continue to be expensive and time-consuming to run. It might make sense to sell it off to someone and have them host and manage it with a revenue strategy. Or it might (heavens no) make sense to shut it down, and have a group of artists restart one as a co-op.

Thanks
Lisa

Mike,
Prospective new members would be given a free trial period.

You say "no time expended on anyone's part" - but that's not true. All forums require overseeing and maintenance - questions have to be answered from members - how to log on, how to post an image, trying to make sure no members are tearing each other apart and so on.

The focus of the Forum has always been traditional portraiture only and was never intended to be open to everyone who wanted to be a painter of faces and figures in any style. This keeps the Forum in alignment with the main site. It was never intended as a stand-alone thing for everyone, but instead an offshoot of the main site. "If you like want you see on our main site and that's aligned with your pursuits as an artist, then join our Forum."

Over time as the membership grew and especially since the critiques area opened, time demands have increased significantly, but the number of qualified members who are active and can give a good critique has not really increased correspondingly. Additionally, the level of accomplishment of new applicants is all over the place, often the artist needing simple basics, which is beyond the scope of this Forum. It was just becoming too much to handle to let everyone join who wanted to, so the Board decided to require approval for new members.

You also don't know that there are tons of artist who have applied, submitted their two images and been approved and never posted a single time. Each of those approvals cost myself and the Board time and energy. I doubt that anyone would apply and not participate if they had to pay a feee.

But, the original concept I had for the Forum is that it would be a place for those who are members of the main site to come and communicate about their art and career - it was mostly intended as a benefit for them. I decided to also open it to non-members since, in general, I have an interest in helping portrait painters. Little did I dream that there would be far more Forum joinees who are not SOG main site members. I also never counted on the amount of work, bandwidth and storage space involved.

Lisa,

The only ones turned away at the front door are artists whose drawing skills are below a certain level or whose style is very inconsistent with our focus. I think the membership software supports access to certain areas. I would have to check whether it's an automatic thing. But, it would be easier to have an annual fee that covered critiques over charging for them one at a time.

The tracking of all that could end up being a lot of work and I'm trying to decrease the amount of work. Better would simply be an annual bonus for moderators or something along those lines.

Webcast is not something I want to get into. We have had a section pending for a portrait demo start to finish, which would be steps shown in posts in a thread. The first was to be Allan Banks and Peggy is in charge of that. It's been a long time coming, because both Allan and Peggy are very busy. But, I just happened to speak with Allan yesterday and he said he had now completed a couple of portraits where he had taken photos at the appropriate stages.

Again, there's the time issue - running a lending library would increase workload. Do you mean used or new? Peggy sells her videos right from her site and they are advertised on the left side on every page of this forum. Dan's videos can be purchased through him and I think there are a few online places.

More books? Have you ever visited by bookstore? There's over 400 books there. I put the Dick Blick link at the top of all pages of the Forum thinking I'd start getting a lot of sales from that, but it's been barely a trickle. A lot of the art supply places do not have affiliate programs. There's actually a lot of portal type links over in my Resouce & Biz section of my main site. There's really not a lot of space on the Forum to put a ton of links unless I started a thread just for that, but would anyone really read it and click - and then bother to come back the next time they ordered?

Well, of the two that said they'd be willing to pay in this thread, they are my moderators, so they get free membership anyway.

I've gotten only a few new clients from the Forum. I see that as a bonus, since I didn't start the Forum to get new clients. However, the time spent in other ways would have been more financialy productive for me.

I feel it would be less time-consuming because only those who are truly interested in being involved would bother to pay the fee. This would decrease the number of new applicants. The membership software does automatic emails for membership expirations and it interfaces with PayPal for payments.

I can't see that the Forum by itself has any saleability.If it were to close down, why start a new one - why not just go over to WetCanvas?

It's interesting that this thread has had 171 views as of this writing, but only 5 people have responded. That's because most of the people viewing are not registered members.

I think this would be essential if you go that way.

I don't know much about WetCanvas, how do they make ends meet?

I have always thought that a good bit of the critique should be canned. For the beginners who post beginners work, they should be directed to a canned response section ie: edges, composition, poor photo reference. The onus should be on them to bring their work to a point which deserves a critique.

About the question of maintenance, file storage, hard dollar expenses, these are tough business decisions for you. I don't think anyone here feels a sense of entitlement. I don't want to speak for the other moderators, but, I think there is a certain sense of wanting to give back and pass on what we know. There is a distinction however, we spend no hard dollars to do this, only time.

As for me, I hope some equitable solution can be reached, I would not like to see the forum disappear.

All new members receive an email when their membership is approved asking them to do some thorough reading on the Forum before they ask for critique.

Michele has previously suggest a place to refer others on basics. I think it's a good idea. I could call the section "The Basics?" Then correct information would need to be posted there.

When I moved FreeDrive.com from free to fee, the reasons were similar. It was expensive, it was time consuming, and the software was becoming unwieldy due to its size. We had 15 or 17 million members, I can't remember. We ended up with something like a 4% conversion of the active members (something quite lower than 15 million). Most of the savings were derived not from eliminating usage, but from eliminating storage - which for you would mean archiving most of the information that's already here.

Additional costs crept in, like the need to advertise the service. Also, we had seriously undermined the trust relationship we had with our customers, and over time, though usage was initially high, a large percentage of them did eventually drop off.

Overall, it was a good thing for Freedrive, despite the trauma, which was significant. It extended the life of the company by about 8 months or so, and the company did not fail because of the fee structure. Eventually I think the usage would have crept back up, but in all probably we would have sought an outside partnership anyway and tried to integrate the service with similar businesses.

I consulted for 2 other businesses who wanted to take their memberships to fee-based. Part of the analysis and research included indentifying all the assets of having the free structure, and what the probable outcome would be if the structure would change. It doesn't sound as though you feel this Forum is actually netting you a benefit, and that's an important thing to consider.

Prospective members expect an exchange-for-value. In other words, the Forum would have to get better in some way - more services, deeper conversations, artistic promotion, something - and that would involve more work. Your storage bill would not change - if you archived all the messages why would people stay? Your ad budget would increase - if you wanted to sustain membership you'll have to have new people. Free access for moderators is not much of a draw to get people to work for you. The 30 day trial will bring in about 70% of people who never return, diluting the conversation and value further. Of the 50-75 members (less? more?) who have posted in the last 30 days, only maybe 25% can be optimistically expected to sign up based on this survey - is 15 people enough to sustain a lively forum?

So what I'm suggesting is that there may be other ways to increase revenues, and decrease costs and time spent. While this road might turn out to be the best for you, it might not be, too.

Hi,

As a member and non-moderator, I would be willing to pay a yearly fee for membership. This forum has been my lifeline back to art. I don't feel qualified to give critques yet and do feel I "owe" for all the informaton I receive here.

How much is it worth to me? I'm still thinking on it. I certainly have learned more here than in my "Artist" magazine. I would pay more than that yearly subcription.

Many points have been brought up so far that I want to address. First, I am not computer literate, but my son is. As far as I'm concerned anything on the internet (like a forum) magically runs itself. My son has taught me the reality of forum maintenance through his own work. I can confirm that operating even small forums is time consuming, feeding an ever hungry monster.

As for just closing it down and moving on to "Wet Canvas", absolutley not! Each forum has it's own persona, this forum is directed at representational art, pinpointing "fine art" and technique. I post at "Wet Canvas" for fun and conversation. I post and read here to learn.

Also (just for your info Cynthia), I visit this site many times daily without logging in. So take at least 5 views a day by a non-member and mulitiply it by how manys days I've been a member and subtract that from your total views for a more accurate picture of total views. My way of being invisible!

I've determined that I can't take workshops due to my health issues. This is my school, if I need to pay I will gratefully. Oh, and the internet was developed for the government, not for our (the public) entertainment. It is an incredible opportunity and resource for learning. Since becoming internet savvy, I've turned into an information hound, it only costs me a computer, all the add on stuff, a cable connection, maintenance, time, etc. etc. etc.

One more thing, if I pay can I post my animals????

Jean

:sunnysmil :sunnysmil :sunnysmil

All the considerations of marketing, audience, and overall impact on the forum of such a step aside, I'd be willing to pay what I spend on an art magazine subscription yearly to be able to continue to access SOG's portrait forum. It's a valuable resource for me and I enjoy reading critiques and discussions even when I don't participate actively. The degree of expertise and professionalism here is unique. I posted on WetCanvas for a long time and was invited to become a moderator, but eventually felt that the level of ability was too variable and that for every artist with skill or promise, ten others seemed to have very little awareness of their own shortcomings and not much insight into how they might improve.

In terms of their business practices, I also have the impression that WetCanvas actively solicits contributions, although they're not required for posting privileges.

Only you can know how much time and energy maintaining this forum requires, and whether it's worth it to you. As well, only you know what level of reimbursement would tip the balance so that your ends were furthered and your efforts compensated for. I shall watch this thread with interest. Best of luck, whatever you decide!

I think this is a basic misconception and Al Gore totally forgot to think this thru when he developed this great resource.

There are a few things people (web surfers) do not think about, and really wouldn

Mike,

I don't know how WetCanvas covers their costs.


Beth,

All good and true information. Thank you. However, I think Lisa meant the Internet information was free to the consumer and you're talking about costs to the provider of the site.


Everyone,

Several people have suggested that I take on advertising to cover costs.

1. A lot of what appears to be advertising on sites is either:

• link exchanges
• affilate programs where a percentage of sales is paid

2. A few months ago, I put up the Dick Blick banner on the Forum pages. I thought the Forum would be a perfect place since so many artists visit here. I've gotten very little from it. No advertiser would be willing to continue to pay for the little bit that banner has generated.

3. Marketing to advertisers is a whole project in itself. There's figuring out what it's worth and that's based on statistics and from what I've read, some of them I don't have access to. Then there's all the communication to potential advertisers, followup calls - it's a huge project in itself.

4. Part of the reason to charge a fee is to discourage:

• people who apply, are approved and never participate
• people whose work doesn't fall within our focus

I pay for bandwidth, not storage. However, if it became large enough the isp would ask me to buy my own hard drive.

Additional costs crept in, like the need to advertise the service. Also, we had seriously undermined the trust relationship we had with our customers, and over time, though usage was initially high, a large percentage of them did eventually drop off.

Overall, it was a good thing for Freedrive, despite the trauma, which was significant. It extended the life of the company by about 8 months or so, and the company did not fail because of the fee structure. Eventually I think the usage would have crept back up, but in all probably we would have sought an outside partnership anyway and tried to integrate the service with similar businesses.

I consulted for 2 other businesses who wanted to take their memberships to fee-based. Part of the analysis and research included indentifying all the assets of having the free structure, and what the probable outcome would be if the structure would change. It doesn't sound as though you feel this Forum is actually netting you a benefit, and that's an important thing to consider.

So, you're saying that as it is, that it has no value?

I wouldn't archive the messages.

All of the current members have come from the visibility of my main site, some promotion by supporters like Karin Wells and Chris Saper. I don't do any advertising, nor would I. The Forum is only a part of the main Stroke of Genius site and not my main business.

Most people who become moderators do so because they have teacher inclinations or have derived a lot from the Forum and want to contribute back.

The 30 day trial would only be for viewing and would take no interaction on my part.

I don't know. Looking at what statistics there are, there are something like 1400 unique visitors a month and anywhere from 20-150 posts a day.

I also believe that people often tend to not appreciate or take for granted that which is free.

...thus, the cost to the user. :)


Yuck! I think it junks up a site and takes away from the professional look.

Okay, so I'm definitely getting some opinions here, but no one has voted in the poll. Could you please do so? Much appreciated.

Cynthia, you wrote: Does that mean that old posts would no longer be available for viewing?

The messages would still be available for viewing.

I guess I

Thank you, Steven, for your very thoughtful reply.
By the way, it sounded like you voted in the poll, but I don't see any votes yet.

And, thank you to all the others who have expressed support.

Cynthia
 

Of course everyone would rather have it for free, but as several previous posters have put it, this forum is WORTH paying for and if that is what it comes to, I will pay to stay!

I have learned more from the professionals in this forum in the last couple of years than I have from any magazine, book or class. This thread is making me nervous that this forum will fold!

My main concern about a fee is that the forum would change, for the worse. If you do go fee based, as I think Lisa pointed out, I believe it would take more effort on your part to make sure the forum stays at this level or better.

I don't know what the answer is. Im not clear on whether it is money you are needing or more man hours to maintain the forum. If it is the latter would you consider asking volunteers to help? I would be willing.

I'm an internet junkie, and belong to many forums. None of them are fee based, however some, like the EZ boards are set up to take donations. The donations keep all of the pop ups off. We can see at the top of the board how much money is in the pot and the members hate the pop ups so much and love the forum even more, that that pot always seems to have enough in it to keep the forum rolling. I KNOW that forum has many many more posts a day than this one.

Other boards rely heavily on volunteers to do the mundane and they keep on rolling.

I hope you find your answer. This forum is amazing.

Thank you! We've worked hard to make it a class act, to keep it focused and to help others learn. Don't be nervous. I'm not on the verge of pulling the plug.

Thank you Mary! I may end up calling on your.

I know there was a lot prior to your post to read through. Part of the issue is discouraging people from applying who are not going to participate. Each new applicant takes time to process. I've had 3 in the last day. Each one is being handled one by one and there are multiple steps. Sometimes I have to also send one or more emails to the applicant. After we've put in the time and the person never gets involved, it's wasted work and disheartening. There's a ton of these people.

Part of the reason we do have the quality that we do is because we require that the artists be at a certain level of achievement in their work. It's not to be elitist. Instead, it's more like "have you done the work to be ready for college?" Those who are not ready are outside the scope of this Forum.

I'm familiar with EZBoard. In fact, I had an EZBoard Forum before this one. There's a small annual fee to keep the popups off. This Forum software, I already bought for a one-time fee of around $150-170 - can't remember exactly and then a $35/year fee to renew the license. It's my time that's involved and the cost of the bandwidth.

I also think that people who have to pay for something tend to appreciate it more. Though it's not the total reason, the bad behavior exhibited by some members over the life of the Forum enters somewhat into the equation. Though it's not a total deterrent, I'm inclined to think that the greater appreciation one has for something one has to pay for, would help to diminish this type of thing.

The other is the hundreds and hundreds of hours I've put in and the hours I continue to put in. I'm not trying to play "poor me." But, realistically speaking, to keep up with all my clients and the Forum, I pretty much work 7 days a week and very seldom is that an 8 hour day. Typical email demands of this business (including my business + Forum), since January 21, I've answered 624 emails.

If I took the time spent on the Forum and looked to obtain other clients, it would be more financially remunerative. But, since I've never been totally motivated by finances, I'm willing to accept that whatever comes from the Forum would never match what I'd make if that time was spent elsewhere, but I'm feeling that there should be some token payment.

It is a certain amount of reward when I see that the Forum has helped artists. And, I love it when that person now has a desire to contribute back. Michele Rushworth is a prime example of this and Mike McCarty. On the other hand, when people break the rules and indulge in personal attacks that have to be handled, it makes me wonder why I bother. The perpetrators of this type of thing have no clue the damage that it does and the wasted hours of productivity that it wastes.

By the way, something that members can do to improve the quality is take a look at the membership list, pick the best artists and of those, see who has posted little or never and write and invite them to participate. Paul McCormack is one. He's a registered member, but has never posted. What's keeping him away? Maybe just a practical matter, but it would be wonderful to have him involved.

I'd have to see if the membership software has the capability of tracking donations. Those other Forums probably also have many more members and thus more who are willing and able to be volunteers.

It would certainly be less work to get rid of the approval process. But, I feel that would dilute the quality. We could end up with everyone from kindergarten to college. And, if we have a ton of kindergarteners, those with real talent will stop coming.

Thank you for your support! Maybe one solution would be a fee for the first year and then donations after the first year.

Please, everyone, take the poll. Still no one has voted. Do I not have enough selections?

Cynthia, the two main boards I am referring to that rely on volunteers has 156 members on one and 64 on the other, of that I would say a fourth at best participate.

I agree that there should continue to be a screening process, otherwise it would just be another wet canvas.

(Why don't you do another poll and see how many volunteers for screening emails you can round up!;) )

Okay, I figured out why I'm not seeing the poll results...duhhh. The questions display until such time as I vote and then it will display the bar graphs. Ok, I'll vote and then remove my vote, I think that will work.

Oh, Cassandra, you silly wench
 

Steven, I'm surprised at your insinuation. Usually you're not the kind of person to level something like that, but hey, obviously this is an emotional topic for most of you. As a matter of fact, I gave $180 to public radio in Toledo and Michigan last year, and similar amounts the 15 years before that.

Reading these posts, I'm just not feeling the love. I probably should have just kept my ideas to myself, but I thought my experience would be helpful. How many other people on here have actually done a transition like this before? I followed it up with loads of suggestions and other ideas, if the goals are what Cynthia says they are.

And, true to form, the Forum responds with sniping, snideness, and sarcasm. On a positive note, your attachment may indeed may make it all work out.

Cynthia, you asked if the Forum was worth it - I can't remember the last time I read something very interesting. Oh, wait, it was the conversation between Tim and Marvin, and instead of moderating it, it was quashed with all the arrogance possible. And you *are* still screening members? I thought you'd stopped.

There are loads of nice, talented people on here, but more and more it's petty tyrants and BADDDD paintings.

So, no, I wouldn't dream of paying you. Especially if the message was "Hey guys, I'd like to work less and make more money. Could you spare $40? And could the people doing half the work please do it for free?"

So knock yourselves out. Send me an email in a year and let me know what happened. I did meet lots of other people here who led me to other forums and venues - I'll be over there.

Please delete my free membership

Thanks
Lisa

Just noticed this today, and I admit to not posting much, but I'll give my $.02. I have found this forum to be of much higher quality than Wetcanvas, almost to the point where there should be no comparison. I have gotten critism that I could not have gotten anywhere else, which I am greatly appreciative of. My only problem, is that I wish I would recieve more. I understand posting in the drawing area is not as popular as the oil area, but I don't do oils. When I do get responses, many times it's from the same people. I would be very fustrated paying a fee and not getting much feedback. I'm here for the critiques, I don't feel qualified enough to critique someone else, unless I'm confident on my response.

If the fee is imposed, hopefully there will be more participation, as I notice that there are rarely more than 5 people every time I log on, maybe I'm in at the wrong time. If potential clients are no longer allowed to view the forum, then I feel figures, including nudes, should be included. I was told nudes were not allowed to prevent clients from viewing, but that should no longer be an issue. I don't do many nudes, but the ones I do, I still consider portraits. If there is any concern on bad taste, I would be willing to submit to a moderator first before posting. I also want to read Marvin and Tim having disagreements. As long as childish remarks or namecalling can be avoided. If someone has a strong opinion, I feel they should have a right.

I'm not sure if I'd be willing to pay a fee. The amount of responses to my posts and my low participation to other posts (my fault ofcourse) may not seem worth the trouble. The quality of reponses are worth it, but they are too far in between. If I become no longer part of this forum, let me say it was great, and many thanks to everyone, especially those who helped, and to Cynthia, who is doing a great job and the amount of work she puts into this, I'm sure is underapprecaited. I don't think she would would ask for a fee unless it was needed. Thank you.

No. When the fee starts, I'll move on
 

No. When the fee starts, I'll move on.

My two cents
 

I like the idea of a 30 day free membership. That would be enough time to convince anyone of the value of this forum.

I certainly would be willing to pay for the privilege of participating/viewing. For a while, I just about lived in the archives! They and the critiques have been invaluable in my own growth as an artist.

It's a good idea to have some "hardship" waivers, though.

It appears that the subject of money is bringing up a lot of emotions in people. But this forum is definitely worth some money spent and it sure beats Cynthia having to quit doing it if the administrative costs get to be too much.

Dear Cynthia, et al.;

Although money is an issue with me, more so than I wish it were, I would still approach this matter much as Chris has. Because the forum is, overall, a good and valuable one for me I would be willing (able) to pay a modest annual fee for participation (both reading and writing). I haven't posted as often as I would have liked to over the years, but I have certainly benefitted numerous times from reading. Plus, I have certainly made some fine e-quaintances here; friends, really. (In fact, I hope to meet many of you at this year's Portrait Society of America conference). I also understand the mountain of work that it takes to keep such a forum going, as well as the upkeep of technology and hardware, etc.. So, yes, a small annual fee is in order.

All best.

Juan

Posting Fees
 

It's pretty difficult to gather any money when you are just starting out. Yet, at the same time, when you are just starting out is when this forum is of the most use.

I recognize the need to finance this forum, but the issue is how best to do it. If I might be so bold, I would suggest a fee schedule based on replies and posts.

For example, perhaps $5 to post a new subject, and $1 per reply to a post. This is only a suggestion.

Cynthia, you wrote: Since this issue seems to be one of the most problematic, perhaps a one-time joining fee for new members would be a good place to start.

And in case it sounds like I'm trying to avoid paying for myself, I'd be happy to make that retroactive for my own membership, too. Of course, as I mentioned above, I'd also be happy to pay a substantial annual fee, since this forum has been so helpful to me.

To Fee or Not to Fee...
 

I have found this forum to be an absolute miracle! That may sound trite, but it's true. I have found the responses to my postings either positive, constructive , or no posts at all. Why no posts? Probably some of the BADDDD paintings previously referred by a now previous member (not being as experienced or as confident as most artists here, I take that comment personally). Cynthia,never have I participated such a constructive forum before and I value it greatly.

Ariving at the right price of such a forum is similar to finding the right price of a painting. In the Stroke of Genius website, it clearly states that prices should be a certain minimum as not to undermine the other artists on the site. I can not afford to have 90% of the artists on this site paint a portrait for me. It does not, however, keep them from painting for those who can, allowing me to simply appreciate and learn from their work via SOG.

Yet I'm often told "You charge HOW MUCH??? My cousin's half-sister's brother-in-law's nephew only charges $25." Well then they can go to him for their next painting. I'm swamped as it is.

Bottom line, if you charge a fee, some may go elsewhere, some may stay, some may stay and complain. Guess what? You've got that now. I would be willing to pay a fee and my funds are as tight as they come. I think we can forgo a night of pizza for a year of invaluable forum membership.

Michelle, I think your idea is a GREAT one!

Though the offended member has apparently resigned, I'll just say that the "public TV/radio" reference was by way of analogy -- a pretty apt one, I thought -- and wasn't a reference to anyone's personal practices in that regard.

Obviously there are some old issues welling up here that have nothing to do with the subject of a member fee per se. It's unfortunate that they haven't been raised constructively prior to this, so that they could have been addressed.

A side issue as well, but it seems we're careening in that direction -- as for matters such as the quality of work displayed for critique, this is, after all, in large part a teaching forum, with, admittedly, a dearth of volunteer teachers. The whole point is that the works have shortcomings, problems to be solved. The benefits of the process are presumably shared by many more than the artist in question. Fully realized, professional-grade works show up initially (or eventually) in "Unveilings", which hardly qualify as "bad."