Underpainting with RU
 

I've been slopping paint for almost 20 years, and decided to try one of those raw umber underpaintings for the first time. Yikes!!! Not easy.

I'd appreciate some thoughts on this. My guess is that this has been covered, here, before, so if someone could point me in the right direction, I'd really appreciate it.

Need more info
 

Hi Richard

Are you trying to do glazing? Or just using an underpaint of any sort for the first time under a more alla prima approach?

Yes, and yes . . .
 

Julie:

For all these years, I've worked mostly at direct painting -- a solid sketch/drawing, and then start painting. That's a difficult way to go, but if you keep at it, you eventually start to "get it." I thought I was in that notch, now -- of getting it -- so I decide to branch out and learn to paint the old fashioned way.

Over the years, I've read tons of stuff about painting -- all those techniques -- but that old master thing of using solid underpaintings kept popping up, so I decided I'd have a go at it.

I don't know about you, but it was like starting over, in some ways.

And those who write about it aren't all that clear, either. They talk about underpaintings using raw umber, burnt umber, all the different reds, black and white, and so on. This confuses me because when you start glazing/scumbling over them, you get different effects with different colors, leading me to believe that the color of the underpainting is quite important. But, these writers don't get into that very much. So, I feel I'm still out there on that limb of the tree labeled "for dumb students."

I would like to know more about it, but from what I've done so far, it's a very tricky thing. Gotta get that underpainting just the right degree of value and then you have to sort out what colors to glaze/scumble over them. It's about as tricky as when I started with direct painting -- sorting what color/value to use where.

Still, it picks away at me. I feel we should know as much as possible about making pictures.

I have found a site (www.artpapa.com) run by a Russian who goes into some detail about it. Even has demonstrations, but I'm not sure I like what he says, which, in effect, is: We're not worried about the real color, just that we get a pretty picture in the end.

So far, my attempt has left me a bit dizzy -- it seemed more difficult to lay in color. That cussed underpainting keeps getting in the way. :-)

Glazing technique
 

Hi -
I can't advise you much on this technique. So far I have only used glazes to correct values or too bright a color, and occasionally for painting, as in a reflection in a mirror. Obviously, since the glazes go over the underpainting, the color of the underpainting affects the final result. Some of that can be deducted by thinking about color theory, and some can be learned through trial and error.

But I can point you to an excellent demo Karin Wells did on the forum, showing how she glazes. Unfortunately, I don't have time to look up where it is for you right now, but if you search messages with her name and glazing, you should find it. The picture is of a fantasy/elf person, and she takes you from her original underpainting to the final product. It was a real "aha!" moment for me when I saw these. I understand the process so much better now.

There's also a wonderful beginning/middle/end example by an artist whose name I can't recall at the moment (sorry - it's that I recall the face, can't recall the name thing). He is headquarted in Holland, and has posted his tryptichs for us to view, in which he starts out with a very light underpainting. Look up tryptich and you might find it.

If anyone can provide the links, that would be nice.

You might want to give this thread a look: "Underpainting by Karin Wells".

Scott Bartner
 

Hi -

I found some info on the other artist I was thinking of. It's Scott Barner. Go to http://bartner.com and you'll see some samples of his stages.

Hi!
here a lot of info :

http://forum.portraitartist.com/show...&threadid=1703
Cheers!

Richard

Have you found what you are looking for? You mentioned "old master techniques"; may I ask which old masters you have in mind. Maybe I will have some suggestions for you, depending on the era of painting you're interested in emulating.

Frankly, I'm generally skeptical about "glazing over a monochrome underpainting" ever having been a widespread and effective method. Most of the paintings I have seen that I know were painted in this manner, look terrible today because much of the glazed colour has long since disappeared.

All best.

Juan

Richard,

I agree completely with Juan. It is best to paint as directly and as broadly as possible. I only glaze when a special effect calls for it. That is not very often.

Bill

I'm with Bill and Juan. I think that for the most part glazing is unnecessary. Besides which, using little paint and lots of medium ( the essence of glazing) makes for a weak paint film. Painting with a loaded brush gives you a lot more control over the colors you can mix and the subtleties you can achieve.

Glazing, etc.
 

Folks:

Thanks for all the thoughtful replies. Juan asks "which old masters?" Well, Juan, I suppose that was a rhetorical reference . . . all of them so to speak. I've just become interested in this technique, and, in fact, I've been developing my own glazing techniques that are probably different, yet the same, in some ways, from any of those old masters.

Rather than going through the RU, or black/white/gray underpainting, I've been using rather bold colors in the direction in which I'm interested in going, and then glazing over them.

For example, where I'd like to have a real warm, old wooden barn wall -- an interior view -- I'll paint it in somewhat garish reds, and then come back and glaze in various quantities of burnt umber/alizarin/Ivory black. You get the idea. These glazes cut the garish quality of raw red, let the red shine through, change things to a darkish, orangish, reddish look that seems thin and transparent. You can add a touch of blue (ultramarine or cobalt, also, which further tempers the strong red.

As I say, I'm doing this mostly to get the concept, and, also, to see what happens. It's all new to me, so it's fun, too. I must say that using glazes for the backgrounds, and opaques for the lights, and those items in the foreground, provides some interesting ways of seeing things. The opaque things seem to bounce forward while the background/shadow seem to have depth. But, of course, this is one of the reason for doing all this.

I may adopt glazing, but in a limited way. For now, it's a learning process for me. If anyone has any other ideas for me, I'd like hearing them.

If I have one REAL complaint, it is that my art education has been so hit and miss. I learn where I can, and not always in the order the information would be presented in a formal school setting. So, as you might suspect, I get a hunk of something that is a light year ahead of where I am, then them a bit of something that is well behind where I am, and I'm left in the middle, trying to sort out just where I am and what I have actually learned. In the end, though, it is fun, and I'd rather try to make art than anything else.

For those of you who don't understand how beautiful the technique of underpainting and glazing can be, I'd like to invite you to see Scott Bartner's important demo here (his finished painting shown below): http://forum.portraitartist.com/show...2&page=1&pp=10

Properly done, glazes do not "weaken" paint. You can look at any Vermeer or DaVinci and see how these delicate glazes have withstood the test of time.

Scott, do you teach?

Marvin, you wrote: As I understand it, glazing should not involve lots of medium. It is done by applying a physically very thin layer of transparent paint, at the consistency it is when it comes straight from the tube.

Hi !

I found an interesting Page to painter techniques (Old Masters) written by V.Elliott:
http://www.geocities.com/~jlhagan/advanced/chapter6.htm

Cheers!

In response to recent critical remarks regarding underpainting and glazing, I wanted to share a portion of a message to me regarding this thread. It is from E. Melanie Gifford, PhD, Research Conservator for Painting Technology at the National Gallery of Art in Washington, D.C.

[COLOR=Navy]

[QUOTE= E. Melanie Gifford, PhD, Research Conservator for Painting Technology at the National Gallery of Art in Washington, D.C.]"The painter has to chose the working methods that work for him.

There's lots of stuff out there on the market that I wouldn't use, or that might detract from the longevity of a painting. Just because someone makes it and sells a lot of it doesn't necessarily mean it's the right stuff.

Opens a can of Uber Worms ...
 

Speaking of glazes being 'cleaned off' over time, I just finished a book on painting conservation by Keck (written in 1965) where she mentions a few cases of this very thing. And while reading it, I began to wonder, what do you pros do to ensure that your relatively few glazed passages are not 'cleaned off' in the future?

Here's my problem: I have developed a habit of glazing Alizarin over a portrait to appropriately redden checks, noses, or ears, in addition to glazing clothing and sometimes shadows on the face. Since these glazes will be the very last layers of color within the portrait, how could one best ensure that a future cleaning wouldn't remove these passages when the varnish is stripped off and re-applied?

What do you guys do?

Minh Thong
(For the record, I'm quite sure I have not yet painted anything that will be around long enough to need cleaning. However, I'm still curious because I stubbornly cling to the hope of finding a teacher before I'm so old my eyesight is gone and I am forced to explore scultpure. :D )

Dear Minh:

In Keck

Thanks Scott.

So today's varnishes, not being as strong as that previously used, merely will require less rubbing for removal, thus sparing the upper glazed layers? I've noticed my Rambrandt Permenant Madder seems quite 'fragile' when retouch varnish is applied (I've lifted it off when retouching after a month drying), so I was thinking cleaning down the road would take it right off. Again, as you can see from my newest avatar, I still have quite a ways to go before I need to worry about this kind of thing. But you never know.

I have the Gamblin kit, but haven't used it yet. So far, I have only retouch varnished (Damar/Turps) the few things I want to save or have sold/given away, but I have two semi-keepers coming due for a final varnish any time now.

Thanks again ...

Minh