Critique and anger don't mix.
 

I love this Forum as a way for professionals to exchange technical and philosophical information as well as offer our help to beginning portrait artists. I think that this is a wonderful profession but I am more and more concerned about the low quality of work that I am seeing.

Here is an old example from our Photographic Reference section. Since few of us paint from life, photography is a very important skill for most of us to master. The photographic reference section of this forum is the one place where all of us - both pro and beginner alike - are pretty much on the same footing.

Taking pictures is just plain hard work. But unlike handling a brush, rudimentary knowlege of handling a camera is simply not beyond anybody's skill level.

To take a poor reference photo and delude yourself that it is OK for any reason will probably get in the way of any artist ever making a quantum leap in their quality of work.

Sometimes when I get critical of reference photographs, it annoys and hurts people. I get emails. They let me know.

Also, in the Critique section of this forum, I have seen the same thing too often happen in that trying to help someone will generate anger.

My problem is this...how do we say what we think we need to say in order to help an artist improve their work? In my experience, the only way I learn something is by the mistakes I have made and eventually become able to see. My best teachers always pointed out my mistakes, thank heavens! :) In the past I have made a ridiculous amount of mistakes and look forward to making many more.

Offending others and generating bad feelings is not only a crummy and frustrating experience but a colossal waste of time.

Sometimes I feel as if I am picking my way through a mine field. In a Forum like this, is there any way to tell who really wants help and not just a happy pat on the back?

Maybe we should start a list...

Karin:

I think you are dead on.

It is absolutely true that as portrait artists, it is essential that we understand WHAT makes a good portrait, and HOW to get the reference that reflects our vision. Regardless of whether you are working from life or photos, there needs to be a baseline understanding and knowlege possessed by the artist of what works about what you are seeing in your subject and what does not work.

If you are going to paint from photos, you need to be almost as good or better than a professional photographer. You need the training, the skill, and the equipment.

We need to view our reference with the most critical eye because it will be reflected in the painting. A fine art portrait artist lives and dies on their customer's delight with their commission. Satisfaction is not enough, IMO.

Further, this site is primarily for working pros/semi-pros and you gotta be able and willing to take some hard criticism if you want to improve and you have to do it with a professional attitude.

For those on this site doing portraiture for our living, this is the big time and it is deadly serious stuff...

Learn some skills first!
 

Karin,

I have been feeling the same way. I will not comment on many posts for that reason. You and I know how difficult portraiture is and how dearly won are the skills. Far, far too many of the posts trivialize this area of artistic endeavour.

I think it is pointless to comment on someone's first effort or otherwise done from a snapshot or a photo studio. If the person is serious enough about improving he or she should be told the proper steps to take to acheive their objectives.

They should be, in my opinion:

A: First learn the basics of drawing shapes in black and white directly from simple objects.

B: Draw from life until they achieve a modicum of skill in that area, and then only in black and white. Do not use color untill you have mastered this.

C: Learn how to draw drapery well.

D: Get a good tape or take a beginning workshop in portraiture, do simple heads over and over again from life. Find a good atelier or teacher, even better.

E: Learn, master and respect your tools, mediums and skills. A portfolio is not a series of copies of photos.

F: Master the basics of color, there are many points of view here.

G: Develop a point of view about your work so it is uniquely yours and you have something different to say and offer. You are not just another repetitious clone.

H: Master the aspects of photography that best serve your purposes and ends. There is nothing more tedious to a client than to be called back because of your incompetence, lack of vision or planning. Accidents and unforseen things do happen, or you think you can improve on a direction. That sometimes happens.

I: Direct the picture, do not paint the client's vision. Accommodate only when absolutely neccesary. You are the artist.

J: Visit and revisit museums for inspiration and study.

K: Continue to work from life at every opportunity.

L: Make sure your work adds to the beauty and harmony of the world and is not an expression of your neuroses or future landfill.

M: I almost forgot this. PATIENCE! I find so often we rush the process, hurrying to create our masterpieces,instead we create pieces that reflect our anxiety. We often mistake this for enthusiasm. We ignore and the time it takes to master the basic skills that are neccessary. The Japanese do not consider you a master of any art form untill you have apprenticed full time for ten years. I find humbling the idea that the world is not holding its breath waiting for my latest daubings.

Sincerely,

Thank you for posting this, Karin. If this forum is to reach its true potential, critiques must be clear and honest. No sugar-coating from the instructor giving enough to give it; no whining from the student who needs to hear it. Amen.

And if you truly love painting portraits, it should not at all be distasteful to revisit the basics throughout your career. We all need to do more tonal drawing exercises. We all need to do plein air color brick studies. Incorporate them into your routine; it's more relevant to your body of work than sitting at a computer browsing a forum.

Perhaps we should create a set of "Recommended Steps", something like Sharon's post, above, that we could direct people to on the forum when their work shows a need to revisit the basics.

This would prevent us from having to repeat the same advice over and over, sometimes to the same person more than once!

(I know that just creating this list could be a source of endless argument between some of the pros, so perhaps we could ask Cynthia to just pick someone to write a list of their top 10 portrait artist skills or exercises. Any of the long term pros on this forum could write a very adequate list that most of us would agree to.)

Karin, to address your question about how to avoid creating resentment in the recipient of a critique: sometimes it's unavoidable. Some folks don't listen to the gentler, subtler tips and sometimes a post like the one you refer to are very necessary for the artist in question to hear. Sometimes the truth hurts.

I fully understand the frustrations involved when trying to offer critique. We have discussed the two ends of giving and receiving critique in the past, in other words the language to be used, conduct, etc.

We are not only dealing with photography issues, but also with color and image distortions when uploading pictures to the website. The Artists Magazine has a nice article about photography and Digital Reproduction in its April Issue and I would recommend everyone to read through it. I found the Quality Control section on image resolution quiet helpful.

Maybe someone else on this forum can talk about scan settings and upload requirements of images in a separate thread that can be accessed by anyone who has any doubts on how to do it.

I would also find it helpful if someone who truly knows photography could invest some time and post photos that constitute good reference photos and point out why it makes them good reference. There should be pictures taken with frontal lighting and side lighting, so novices can see how shadows need to be defined in the reference. Minute differences in aperture settings can make a world of difference and what one sees as just fine can be quite deceiving when compared to the work of a pro.

It is quite a struggle to get a grip on all these elements at the same time, but with proper examples those giving critiques might be able to save some time and redirect those asking to the proper thread for direction.

Of course that still leaves the old tattered out of focus references from eons ago that are being used. Those who insist on using those references should know they are on their own when it

Sharon:

As one who is now having to catch up in this area, I definately have to agree. If I had started going to life drawing classes when I started pursuing portraiture in 1998, I believe my art would be much better today. It's tough to do and it's really humbling but it is worth every drop of sweat I put into it.

By either angels, demons, or both, I have been driven to succeed at this work. My training has been fashioned by my own logic.

I stumbled around for years trying to create art from what I thought were interesting photographs. It almost angers me when I think where I might be today in my work had there been an artist forum at my finger tips years ago, if there had been someone who could have hammered into my head a few simple truths.

It never occured to me to try and copy the old masters or even photos from magazines. I think it was mostly ego, but I wanted to point at my work and say that it was mine and mine alone.

After so many years it just came to me like a brick against the side of my head. If I was going to create art from a photograph (and this seemed completely legitimate to me) I was going to have to create an artful photograph.

I then set out to photograph everyone that came into my view. I would find interesting faces and coax them into a photo session. For their trouble I would give them a nice (even if not great, usually nicer than they had ever had) 8x10 photo portrait.

I have taken thousands of bad photographs, and I would not like to calculate my expenses.

What then came to me, also like a brick to the side of the head, was that it is all about composition. All is secondary to the composition. Whether I mix cad red medium or cad red light is just a manageable detail.

I know my path through this work has been different, and I don't suggest that this way is better than others suggested. But my point is this: if composition is "King", and if the camera is the greatest compositional teaching tool I have ever found, and it is, and if every photograph is an instant study in composition (if you will view it as such), then why not take some time off and take a few hundred rolls. And by the way I have never taken a photography class but I would never discourage someone from doing so.

Maybe my journey has put the classic approach on its head, I don't know. I hope someday to study with a great teacher. I hope someday to paint more from life. I do believe that my efforts to date have prepared me to begin.

If you start a list, put me down as really wanting help. It is wonderful that talented and experienced professionals will take the time and trouble to post a critique of my work. I value your comments and advice like gold. I have already gained a lot of understanding about what I need to improve and how to go about improving. Reading other critiques has also been valuable in understanding what goes into making a good portrait.

It is only human to remember an argumentative or ungrateful reaction to your critique much more sharply than acceptance and gratitude. I try to express my thanks and want to show that I've taken the advice to heart when I next post for critique. So please don't feel that you are "casting your pearls before swine."

Karin Wells started this thread off with this paragraph:

What do folks think about making the critique section juried? People who don't make the cut to have their work critiqued could be gently advised to implement some list of basic skills to master before resubmitting.

I think many people would benefit from seeing a much higher level of work being critiqued.

How do others feel?

Personally, I think that the requirements for being a member are enough. It is important that once you are in you have full access to the benefits of the Forum, IMO.

It is inevitable in online discussion that someone is going to take something wrong or be hurt by something someone says. I believe we have to trust in the forum guidelines and the fact that the forum requires a professional and courteous discourse.

Besides, we create too many more rules or gates and we moderators will be sitting here alone!

My 2c... :)

Hmmmm. I do learn from the mistakes that other painters make. Sometimes it is much easier for me to see the mistakes of others than my own and I suspect that others may operate this way too. All in all, I do think that a good critique can be a dandy lesson for all - no matter what the piece looks like.

In trying to rescue people from themselves, the thing that frustrates me the most is attitude, not skill level.

When someone is unwilling to, at the very least, make the necessary effort to improve, or worse, to even admit that a change could be an improvevement.

BTW, I am NOT talking about ANY particular person on this Forum...it is just an accumulation of things that has led me to gnash my teeth and scream "overload."

I do have a streak of "teacher" in me and I delight in working with someone who is willing to work with me. A couple of years ago, I taught a small class of six 9th graders how to "paint like the Old Masters." None of those kids were interested in art and they had no aspirations to become artists. However, at the end of the year, they had each produced a very good painting and managed to develop a good eye. They still keep in touch and enjoy going to visit museums and seeing the masterworks.

The point that I am trying to make is that they had no skill...but they were very willing to work...and they were able to learn the basics.

Critiques!
 

Karin,

Oh, please, oh, please! Don't let the ungrateful on the forum ruin it for the rest of us! I am learning so much and am trying to practice it and integrate it! I have gotten rid of my flash, and am always thinking single light source.

I went to a workshop recently and showed the pro artist some of my new photos (artist Forum style) and she wanted to know if I was a photographer. So I am slowly improving. I don't have a regular teacher, so this forum is like gold to me! Thank you for all of your input, it is read and savored! Don't let the others discourage you!

Blessings,
Cynthia

Good for you! Now that really cheers me up.

I think that I agree with Michael G.

Philosophically speaking, if you can argue that there is a wide range of quality work to be critiqued, you could also argue that there is a wide range of quality critiquers. Shall we jury them as well?

When the most experienced have passed on giving their critique of a less than magnificent effort, this may give an opportunity for the less than great to exercise their critique skills. If the critique is out of line, others may step in and give a nudge back to the center.

The difficulty with jurying the critiquers is that there is already a dearth of people willing to take on the always time-consuming and sometimes onerous

It is funny, when I was studying courtroom drawing, I swear I wanted to stand up and say, "I DID IT". I am the first to admit I am sensitive and to change this was my New Year's resolution.

As I wrote in the "Of donkeys and lost boys" thread. This has been a wonderful experience for me. I have taken some rough critiques and have grown, in my opinion, by leaps in bounds. I wish you could be here with me to watch.

I have been introduced to incredible artists and am actually meeting them and taking their classes.

I think Karin knows me very well! Sometimes I think the photo reference problem is not always the photos taken by the artist, but the artist accepting photos from the client which are incredibly sub-par. I learned my lesson, and I won't do it anymore.

My last photo critique was very educational. Sharon gave me tons of feedback. She is very accomplished at this. I also see the passion in Mike McCarty's work. I think something that would be helpful for me, is to see some of the pro's reference, if they have it avilable to post.

Do we want pats on the back? I personally love them! But it is not why I am here. I send out for those! :)

I do want to point out a lesson I learned in raising kids that might make it much easier for you pros to be incredibly honest...

As loud as you scream when someone does something wrong, scream just as loud when they do something right!

Sharon did this simply by telling me she loved my lighting.

I know you guys spend a lot of time with critiques, but rest assured there are those of us spending tons of time fixing our work to your suggestions.

Long live the forum - and Michele I like your idea. It reminded me of American Idol. My husband said he couldn't believe that those people thought they could sing. I told him I have been knocked off my chair by some of the art that was posted here before Cynthia changed the rules. You know, I hope you aren't thinking of me now that I have said that!

There is that sensitive person again! :D

Just a thought: the most hurting thing for me is nothing being said at all.

Thank you!

Warm ups
 

Learning to take well-intended remarks from fellow artists is merely a warm-up to taking the remarks of clients and galleries which will happen one day as artists move out in the world of art. Might as well learn to take it now. It's all part of this biz.

There's no denying it. Most artists are very sensitive.

If it is appropriate to say so here, I will offer a suggestion. Since models are expensive and sometimes hard to find it may be useful to draw or paint one's own reflection. So many masters have done this. Also, when the weather allows, it is enjoyable to go to the park and draw people lying down or go to a restaurant and try to draw people as they are eating. In school we had life drawing timed to 1 minute, 5 minute and 30 minute sessions. One teacher made us draw draped sheets for 4 weeks! uhh!

Amen, Tim!

When I first started exhibiting artwork it was apparent that things didn

Add me to the list of those who aren't interested in juried or pre-screened critiques.

If someone hadn't shaken me up when I was a rank beginner, I wouldn't have started to develop the (usually) thick hide I have now in regard to my work. Tim's right, you might as well start learning to take criticism from the beginning.

And as Karin said, and as I tell my students, there are a million mistakes, and I have or will make them all. So if anyone tells you your work is fabulous at the very beginning, they're lying. And if you're paying them, they're stealing your money. Two of my most recent students, beginners both, told me they'd fired all of their other teachers, because I was the only one who was honest enough to tell them that they had the POTENTIAL to be great (they do), but had miles to go first. Hearing this was a great affirmation, and a boost. I try to tell the truth, I think it's my job.

Karin, I understand your frustration, but if anyone is put off by a hopefully gentle but absolutely honest critique from me, they won't last long and I won't miss 'em. As I've instructed a hundred times, painting ain't for sissies, and if you have a low tolerance for frustration, failure, and pure hard work, do something else.

Please don't change anything
 

To those of you who do critiques, and have advised me and others: keep being honest and true with your advice. Those who get angry are unfortunate in that they are missing a chance to grow. Its not your responsibilty to hold hands here. You don't have to critique, and when you do take the time and effort to advise a fledgling artist it should be received as a gift. To disregard and worse to e-mail your mentor with anger is ungrateful, disrespectful and egocentric.

I have learned so much here, I read almost every post and when I hear that recipients of critiques are abusing the privelige, I get angry.

Rant over,
Jean

I can't imagine someone responding to a critique with an angry email to the critiquer. People post material for critiques with full knowledge that their work will be reviewed and of course they may not like what they hear. As has been mentioned in the past, however, the recipient of the critique has to decide for him or herself whether the advice is consistent with what he or she is trying to accomplish, and whether the area singled out is a chronic problem for them or only an artifact of the particular stage of the work which is under critique. It can also be confusing when several excellent artists focus on different aspects of a work and one indicates that the primary issue is X, while another suggests that the problem is with Y and X isn't an issue. The recipient can attempt to deal with X's concern and possibly offend Y.

Additionally, sometimes at the point at which people are weighing in with their ideas, the recipient of the critique is no longer in a position to act on the suggestions with that particular work, but will incorporate those ideas with the next painting. However, as Steve points out, critiquers don't have to "go back to that dip" if they feel that their good advice has been ignored.

On the other hand, sometimes people with excellent skills and credentials can legitimately disagree about the validity of a specific approach. I'm thinking of the Romancing the Stone thread which seemed to call forth such strong opinions, both pro and con, among extremely talented and experienced artists. People need to remember that there is the utmost respect for the many wonderful artists on the forum and on SOG, and declining to take a specific individual's advice on a particular issue is by no means a put-down of their ability.

When I offer a critique (both here and, earlier, on Wet Canvas) I try to focus on the specific issue that the artist is asking about, unless I can see that the person has had problems with another area in the past and I can mention it as an issue in the current work. Conversely, if the person can normally produce a good result, based on a look at his or her other paintings, I'd mention potential problems but also acknowledge that they've handled the material properly in the past. As Beth commented, positive reinforcement is an excellent teacher.

I have learned a lot from critiques - of my work and that of others - and it's one of my favorite areas of the forum. I certainly hope no one gives up on critiques, but we all have to decide where best to spend our time.

I can dish it but can I take it?
 

Initially upon discovering this forum, I was much more forthcoming with critiques than I am now. I have been a teacher for 30 years and I am very sensitive to the responses my critiques evoke as I "read" my students reactions and try to separate the criticism of the work from the criticism of the person. This interplay is obviously impossible in this venue.

The main reason, however, I don't get too involved in critiques, is that I view the problems people are having as a result of a gross misunderstanding of what I consider to be the keystones of good realistic painting. For example, to offer criticism as to the position of an eye or mouth (applying a Band-Aid to a wound) is pointless when someone misinterprets the structure of a head (a bullet through the heart). These problems cannot be addressed in the format of a forum.

It's my observation that not understanding structure and the principles of modeling form are the two biggest problems I see both here and everywhere. This is what separates modern artists from old masters. These are the main issues I address when I teach my classes and workshops.

Since we are discussing the sanctity of criticism here, I will be totally honest and say the vast majority of work I see presented here, on the forum, is lacking in those two areas. I know I'm going to get buried for saying this but I'm a big boy and I'll take my licks. This is my opinion and doesn't mean I think anyone is a bad person or their mother wears combat boots.

Earlier this year Renee Price and Denise Hall contacted me about coming down to Greensboro NC and doing a workshop this spring. I basically stated what I mentioned above regarding my views on structure and modeling as related to the work on the forum and their work as well. So I set up a workshop to address these issues as well as color mixing (another big problematic area for those who can

No piling on from this corner, Marvin.

Fact is, none of us is perfect and we can all use work on our structure, modeling and color. I for one also agree with you that a good teacher can take you farther than anything else.

I for one would encourage you to keep comin' round and critiquing when you can - we can only but benefit from it. :)

If you think that is the case, why not share your wisdom with us more often? All help is appreciated. A forum of course isn't the ideal teacher-pupil situation, but this is the medium we use, why not try harder to make it work?

Peter

Michael G. earlier alluded to the recently implemented process for vetting applicants who wish to post work for critique. This was responsive to a concern that too many fundamentally flawed pieces were showing up, and overtaxing critiquers' time and other members' interest levels. (Note: This is NOT in the nature of a "jurying" of individual pieces for critique.)

It is not an easy process, either philosophically or practically. We want to be able to provide valuable consideration of and instruction on a range of matters pertaining to high-quality portraiture, but it's not practicable to substitute this Forum for full-curriculum, hands-on art training all the way back to Day One. What we're generally hoping to see more of in the Critiques section is work that presents issues the discussion of which will be of the greatest benefit to the largest number of members, in addition to the more focused and sophisticated elements that may be of particular interest to the serious, working professional.

As pointed out, there's no use instructing on how to paint the "perfect eye" if we can see that you're trying to put it on a formless head. (If the head is formless, then it follows that you won't understand the form of the eye, either.) And more and more often now, when a fundamental problem such as the inability to express form is apparent, you're going to hear critiquers simply suggest the pursuit of training in those fundamentals with an able teacher in a classroom or workshop setting, or by reference to certain types of basic exercises and projects. This has to be done, though it's one of the areas that can generate the sorts of misgivings and hard feelings that are part of the subject of this thread, though that is never the intent.

The other side of the coin is that

Perhaps some basic form and volume-rendering exercises could be created and posted, maybe in the Subject Specific Demo section. Would a couple of those more experienced teachers out there be willing to put something simple together that those in need of help in that area could follow?

Then when a portrait appeared in the critique section that showed a lack of understanding of those principles, the critiquer could direct the " critiquee" (did I just invent a new word?) to the relevant exercise.

I really like a suggestion that Sharon Knettell sometimes gives and that is for beginners to copy Vermeer's "Girl with a Pearl Earring", first in monochrome, then in color.

Teachers needed for "Subject specific demos"
 

Yes, Michele. I would like to see our narrow focus "Subject specific demo" section be enriched and include demos on how to build and strengthen basic skills for those who need them or those who simply wish a review.

In defense of this Forum, I think that access to a good teacher...even on the Internet...is far better than any amount of personal time spent with a poor teacher. But it is ultimately up to the student to sort this out.

Many members have sadly indicated that they do not have access to a teacher or the money to pursue private instruction and that this Forum is very important in their artistic development.

We are fortunate enough to have some really talented pros and semi-pros participate here who are willing to donate their time and attention to those who are struggling. And according to the feedback, I think that they have made a positive difference to many.

The "Subject specific demo" section depends on those of us who are teachers. If you have a specific and helpful topic to share that can benefit others, and you are willing - without recompense - to support a fellow artist in the struggle to improve their skill, you will not have wasted your time.

Good call, Michele and Karin, and nice segue, Karin. This really rounds out the thread. The matter of providing demos on

Honest work
 

Michael,

I appreciate your candor and honesty in posting you efforts in life drawing on this forum.

When I was starting to investigate this field about 15 years ago there was no information, nada!

Fortunately, I had somewhat of a fine arts background having gone to the Boston Museum School and also studying privately with a very fine teacher. I must say the school was mainly useless. I thought the same as most people who post, just copy a photo and make a portfolio! What a huge waste of time that was. I found I had to hire models, buy whatever tapes were available (thank god for Daniel Greene) haunt museums, go to figure-drawing classes. It was a lot of work and what awful paintings I made. Most of them are in the huge Johnson, RI landfill.

I think this forum is useful in many ways, it dispenses useful information that is hard to get elsewhere. I have benefited by meeting some very talented people that I otherwise would never have had the chance to communicate with. It has been a very valuable materials and techniques resource as well.

I agree wholeheartedly with Marvin Mattelson about pointing aspiring artists in the proper direction. The bandaid approach simply does not work. I think we have to make people aware just how difficult figurative and classical painting is. To do less is a disservice to ourselves, the profession and those who seriously want to learn.

Sincerely,

Sharon:

Thanks for your post. It is "uncomfortable", but that is how I know I am on the right track. :)

When you look at the work of the more established portrait and figure artists like Daniel Greene, William Whitaker, Nelson Shanks, etc., you come away with one thing these people all have in common - to a person, they can all draw and paint from life very well. Further, if you look at their work, you realize that the way they are getting such incredible paintings is that they understand how to "see".

Their work did not get that good from painting from photographs, it got that good from painting from life - most if not all of them under the watchful eye of a master painter who themselves learned that way.

So you say to yourself: "well, how am I going to get there?" (this has become my mantra)

We all paint from photos, but that should not, IMO, be the end. A good portrait artist should be able to paint from photos AND from life and do both with equal aplomb. I for one will not be satisfied until I can.

Your list of exercises and steps are dead on.

One of the best ways to learn to paint from life under all sorts of lighting conditions is to use the model that is always available (and often overlooked)...yourself in a mirror.

I have a suggestion on how we can tackle the

The shortest point from A to B
 

Sharon and Michael,

You put me in the uncomfortable position of being agreed with. My fallback approach has always been to see what others are doing and look in the opposite direction. But I do kind of like the fuzzy warm feeling I got reading your words. Strange, huh!

But seriously, I feel it is supremely important to have the benefit of being guided by a knowledgeable teacher whose approach is based on sound broad based principles. One can personalize and customize one's approach once a wholistic understanding of the painting process has been achieved.

One should be able to paint directly before one attempts to glaze. One should be able to control a limited amount of colors before one expands one's palette geometrically. One should understand how to make a ball appear round before one tries to paint a head. One should be taught to see accurately before one attempts to manipulate and interpret what lies before them.

I may be missing something here, but haven't those who are calling for us to "step up" and demo been trained in schools, workshops, videos and ateliers themselves? Is there someone out there who has developed solely by even reading only books?

Wait! That's exactly how I was trained after 4 wasted years at the Philadelphia College of Art. I developed into one of the country's leading realistic illustrators, painting covers for Time Magazine and ads for IBM, yada, yada, yada. I was blessed with good instincts and a lot of talent and taught myself to copy photos with the best of them.

I knew however there was a severe lacking of understanding on my part, so I searched out until I was fortunate enough to find John Murray, a former student of the late Frank Reilly. John was able to fill in the blanks as to why I was doing what I was doing. It was the beginning of my transition from a renderer to a painter.

I studied with John part time for ten years, at a huge cost, taking away what little precious time I had to spend with my family. I gave up one day a week to paint from life under his supervision. In the beginning it was embarrassing, because everyone in the class knew of my reputation, but I had a goal in mind so I persevered. The first under painting I did looked like Mrs. Gumby! As time went by I improved dramatically. When John got called for jury duty he asked me to run the class, although there were students that had been studying with him longer. That was a great honor.

So I

Marvin, I wholeheartedly believe in what you say. Nothing takes the place of studying with a pro in a workshop setting, but the reality is that this is a dream for many. Depending on the stages of their lives this might be more difficult to achieve than we imagine. This is why this forum offers some guidance in the right direction.

I like to compare painting to playing the piano. Many can make out the notes on a sheet of music and some have even managed to play a piece from beginning to end. But how they play differentiates the skilled from the novices. To have the master

Oh Good Grief, Marvin I agree!
 

Marvin,

I did have the wonderful opportunity to study with a wondeful painter when I was young. The time spent in that studio working from models, testing out color ideas, etc., working side by side with other students was an experience that can never be duplicated. I felt I was alive for the fist time. Unfortunately the Boston Museum School which I attended was woefully lacking in the areas I was interested in, namely figurative art. They were and still are in the throes of abstract expressionism. I know how to paint with sand.

I went on to be an illustrator, as that was the only way I knew I to support myself and still draw people. I had one of the best agents, Gerald and Cullen Rapp. Boy did I make a lot of money! I couldn't get out of my studio.

It was a very usefull period in that I had to learn photography. There is not a fabric or bug I cannot render. It was great in that I learned how to light and pose models. However it was all slick surface and no guts.

Going back to painting has been difficult but rewarding. I still get calls now and again for illustration but it does not interest me in the least.

What I think is particularly embarrassing is somehow we have given the impression that this field is so easy, that all you have to do is render accurately from photos, and voila, another portrait artist. We have some very educated people on this forum and they know the effort, time and sacrifice it went into building their careers. Why do they think it is any less effort to become an accomplished artist?

I have gone without food, rent money, health insurance, rattled around in old and unsafe cars, you name it, to pursue the privilege and joy of being the best artist I know how to be.

Marvin, we may not agree on the details, but we agree on the guts.

Sincerely,

I would like to ask Marvin what use he actually sees in this forum, apart from using it as a promotional tool for his own workshops. (I know you mean it as well-intended good advice, but still...)

When I read the recent posts of Marvin and Sharon it seems to me you are in a similar situation. First you both became very succesful illustrators, and as a reaction to that, you seem to overreact a little. 'Real' painting instead of 'copying photographs'... Portrait-painting isn't easy, but hearing you both being so serious one could easily lose the fun it also should be. It becomes pretentious this way, I'm sorry to say.

I read the two last posts Sharon made in the painting critiques and the pastel critiques section. The only thing you seem to do now is direct someone who shows a drawing or a painting and a photographic reference to this thread in which you point out your step-by-step-plan. It seems like you decided that you do not accept people's effort to create something based on photographic reference?

Peter

How long can this go on?
 

Yes Sharon, as former illustrators under the skin, we've had very similar experiences. I agree, too many believe that somehow, learning to be an artist is supposed to be easy. I tell my students that being a great painter isn't brain surgery, it's MUCH harder.

I recently had a student come to my studio from out of town and study with me privately for three weeks. She was a medical doctor. She made fantastic progress, by the way. She was very talented but with no formal training. On the last day she said to me, "Yes it is much harder than brain surgery!"

Enzie, I appreciate what you are trying to do. As a "pro" the most profound bit of knowledge I can share with everyone is, find a good teacher if you want to improve. Having had mediocre teachers in the past is no excuse to stop looking. Instead of perusing info online, get a part time job; don't eat at restaurants; flip burgers; baby-sit; don't go to movies or on vacations; save money. Where there is a will there is a way.

Come to NY City in July or Greensboro NC in June and study with me! You'll have a great time, laugh and learn more than you could ever imagine. Both workshops are at college facilities so dorm room accommodations are available.

To excel at anything requires great personal effort and sacrifice. You have to want it. Ask Sharon, she'll tell you.

It's interesting that many of those who have inquired and signed up for my workshops are those who would seem to need it least. Hmmm!

Peter, I

Overeaction?
 

It was more like painful surgery!

Marvin and I are more comfortable hurling polite brickbats at each other rather than agreeing. One thing we do agree on passionately is learning and mastering your craft!

I don't know how many blind alleys I went down, years I wasted with erroneous views and improper information. If I could spare that aspiring student some of that pain, so he or she would be able with more confidence bring their vision to fruition, I would be happy.

Marvin has spent a great deal of time and effort trying to rescue paintings so inept that not even an intercession with Mother Theresa could have saved. This I must say, though it kills me, without mentioning his workshop.

This kills me even more! His students seem to be progressing apace!

Sincerely,