Does the background recede far enough?
 

In my painting the viewer could be considered standing very close to the fruit vendor. I need to know when spacial depth is limited, how do you recede the background? Also is there some sort of rule in creating spacial atmosphere?

Enzie:

It is very late here, but in brief:

The principles of atmospheric perspective can be very helpful in creating depth in your paintings.

They generally dictate that "light objects in recession become darker and grayer" and "dark objects in recession become lighter and grayer".

So, snow on a distant mountain peak is never quite white, and mountains as they recede get lighter and grayer. So, your values closer to the viewer should be stronger and as you recede, lighten your darks and darken your lights and raise the overall values as objects recede and it should appear to have more depth. BTW: It is certainly clear that dark objects go through more value transition than light objects do. So darken your lights just a very little bit, but the effect will be dramatic.

There is no pat formula for this, so you will have to play a little and make your own determinations.

Hope that helps. :)

Michael G.,

Thank you so much for your reply. Last night I went searching through my books and found a reference on how to create a haze to tone down the background. The suggestion was to mix black, white and Pthalo Blue. If I were to mix these three colors into a dark gray/blue tone with the addition of liquin and apply it from right to left (over the two furthest away pumpkins, and only partially over the LF side of the onion bag), would that be the correct way and far enough into the painting?

I tried toning it down once and had to repaint the onions. That was no fun and now I am hesitant to experiment for fear of failure.

I will print out your suggestion and save it for reference. Thank you again.

3D in 2D
 

Enzie:

You can apply atmospheric perspective in a number of ways using almost any paint as long as generally objects that recede get either darker or lighter based on their initial value, and things get grayer.

I think what may be bothering you is the intensity of the objects in your background. Their bright hues and rich intensity seems to make them come forward too much, yes? I don't know if you want to go to the efforts to address this in this painting, or just apply it to your future works.

You can even apply this in portraiture with a figure up close. If you paint say a gentleman in a 3/4 view in a dark suit, then you would have one shoulder closer to the view than the other. If you made the farther shoulder just 1/2 a value lighter and added just a touch of gray into the paint of that shoulder, then it will appear to recede more than the closer shoulder. You could even do this with the pupils of the eyes.

This same technique is used in painting rounded objects. As the form turns, the value changes and as it nears the edge, it gets slightly grayer. It will help things turn more realistically.

Basically the cool color of blue recedes objects. And the warm color of yellow brings them forward. If you look at a landscape, the color yellow can only appear in the foreground. The yellow will be less intense in the middleground and disappear altogether in the distant background. (i.e., you can see bright green grass at your feet, but it appears blue in the distance).

You can recede your background in many different ways and here are some:

Glaze warmth into the foreground (raw umber, raw sienna, etc.) so that the background is cooler by comparison.

Or glaze cooler color (i.e., French ultramarine blue, etc.) into the background.

Scumbling a lighter color over an object in the background will make it appear cooler.

You can neutralize the bright colors in the background by glazing them with their color wheel opposite. (i.e., glaze orange with blue, glaze red with green, etc.) This will "grey" the colors down and make them appear to recede.

I use my palette as a toolbox, wherein I have a color available for every need. Do I need a warm middle value orange? There's English Red. Do I need a cool mid value yellow? There's gold ochre. A cool dark transparent green? Viridian. A warm dark transparent green? Sap. Which brings me to the crux of this post. Yellows are not all warm, and blues are not all cool.

Cadmium yellow is a warm yellow, and yellow ochre and gold ochre are cool yellows. The biggest problem arises with blues. All blues are warm. Some are warmer than others, but I found it necessary to add ivory black to my palette as my only cool blue. This, I propose, is the solution to the "blue suit" problem. If you go into a blue suit by using any of the blues, you are off the chart into warm territory, but if you are under the impression the all blues are cool, you are miles away from solving the problem, you need to cool down those warm blues.

This can be achieved by cooling with your true "cools," alizarin crimson, dioxazine purple, or ivory black. This is why the suggested solution of Phthalo, black, and white would work, because you are cooling down the pthalo blue. But be careful. Phthalo is very very warm. If in this formula, there is too much phthalo, you will only succeed in exacerbating the problem.

Michael's answer is on point, it just needs to be expanded a little. As well as things "going away" (atmosphere) moving towards the middle value, (darks lighter, lights darker and colors becoming more muted/grayer), the edges become softer, and the highlights are a darker value as well. In the time honored tradition, squint. Those onions will mass out into a form, not individual onions. The eggplants in particular are too detailed, too much contrast on the 'highlights." Mass them together, knock them down. I suggest to my students whose backgrounds are too "there" to make a wash with turp and a little burnt umber and dioxazine purple. (Remember that burnt umber is used for gray in the limited palette painting, and ivory black and white are used as your blue). It's more controllable than using Liquin; you just wipe out the wash until it looks right. You can even wipe all the way back to the original painting without incident (if the paint is dry underneath).

Peggy

Oops!
 

Thanks for pointing this out Peggy. I was in a very narrow groove here and thinking only in terms of my own palette (listed elsewhere) in which I have assembled both "warm" and "cool" versions of each color.

For example, by comparison with Prussian blue, ultramarine is "cool." Compared to the blue made by mixing Ivory Black + white, ultramarine blue is then "warm." The same comparisons go for reds, yellows, etc.

In other words, I find that any color is relative to those colors surrounding it and this placement will determine its temperature.

"Warm" and "cool" are relative terms and a concept, which I personally find to be useful when I am manipulating paint.

Back, back, back....home run!
 

All effects can be achieved by studying nature. Your hero, Gerome, was a master at making things go back into atmosphere. The greatest artists translate the effects they observe in nature to create the results they seek. The same mindset can be used to make an ear go back or a mountain go back.

What makes things come forward, in the order importance:

1- Contrast (from full hi-lites to dark accent)

2- Chroma (pureness or intensity of color)

3- Sharpness

4- Color differentiation

Van Dyke did an incredible portrait of a pale skinned women in a white dress with black trim, standing in front of vibrant red and orange drapery. The figure came forward due to her great contrast. The background receded because the values were relatively close.

Conversely to make things go back you employ:

1- Close values (loose accents, then highlights etc.)

2- Neutrality

3- Softness (al the way to blurs)

4- Color similarities

These effects can be used alone or in concert, whatever works.

Note: all things being equal red will come forward and blue will recede. But why make all things equal?

Gerome used these techniques (study what he does, dissect his approach) to create greatly exaggerated atmosphere in small expanses of space. Look at how he makes figures in crowds go back when in reality they are 2 feet apart or less. The general rule is that all values merge into the value and color of the atmosphere. Indoors at night, the atmosphere may get warmer and darker. Outdoors on a sunny day the atmosphere becomes bluer and more neutral.

Remember: the greatest tool at the disposal of the artist is neither brush nor paint, it is the brain.

Karin, Peggy and Marvin, I spent all day yesterday painting my studio and moving around furniture. How great was my surprise to find your wonderfully detailed advise this morning. I have already taken Michael G

Marvin's
 

I think Marvin's thoughts were most useful to your question because you are not really dealing with aerial perspective so much as slight depth of field. I think of Schmid and Dean Cromwell-both use (or used) line and design to help create depth as much as intensity etc. I feel some carefull softening of lines where those intersect your figure will help you greatly. Sacrifice everything for the figure.

Thank you Tim for your recommendation. At this point I am on information overload and need to look at paintings, as Marvin suggested. I also need to do some experimenting before tackling the work itself. This painting was meant to be a challenge and a tool to learn new things and I am happy to report that it is accomplishing the objective. I will share the results as soon as possible.

Last week I have been busy repainting my studio and reorganizing my space. I am done now and can concentrate on the work at hand.

Bravo
 

We all should assign ourselves challenges that create growth! Good for you.

Ivory Black vs. Prussian Blue
 

Karin and Peggy would you please refer me to samples in your own work where you have used Ivory Black as a dark blue. I am in the midst of doing my color swatches based on the colors I have used in this painting and I am experimenting with the different suggestions offered. I have a problem with the Ivory Black. When I place the two colors next to each other and squint, I see the same value with the Ivory Black being slightly duller than the Prussian Blue. So if the value is the same why not keep the Prussian Blue? Please explain.

Enzie,

If the color is the same, (both ivory black and Prussian blue are both "blues"), and the values are the same, then the warmer color will proceed and the cooler color will recede. Ivory black in a cool blue, so it will recede, pushing the background back. If you use the Prussian blue, the intense chroma and warmth will make the background pull forward, the problem you are trying to fix.

If you are trying to demonstrate atmosphere behind the main figure of the model, you want the chroma of the background colors to be toned down. I don't use Prussian or phthalo blue on my palette, and did not recommend that you "wash back" your onions with those colors. I suggested that I usually recommend using burnt umber and ivory black or dioxazine purple to "wash back" a background. The burnt umber is a nice neutral, and the ivory black or purple will cool it down if it is too warm.

On to the question about ivory black as a blue, Karin has many more examples than I because she uses a limited palette, but I do have one of those famous "white ball" paintings I did in one of her workshops. The "blue" background behind the ball is created with ONLY ivory black and white. The "black" bottom portion of the painting was done with ONLY burnt umber. (Look how nicely the ivory black behaves itself and stays in the background.)

Peggy

See it and believe it!
 

Peggy, I did the wash with the colors you had recommended and it seems to have toned it down considerably. I will post the infamous onions tomorrow.

Thank you so much for posting the picture. As I had mentioned before, I did color swatches of Prussian Blue and Ivory Black and held them next to each other to compare values. That

Please help!
 

I did the ball drawing and started to apply the paint and it

Enzie,

I'm going to run this over to Karin, I'll e-mail her and ask her to post. This was a grisaille painting, not a direct painting. As I recall, we did an underpainting with very flat paint in the stated colors, then multiple layers of glazes mixed with liquin. Because we were in a hurry, we used Griffin Alkyds. I paint directly, but still find that the Ivory black makes a very sedate blue. I use the Winsor Newton ivory black.


Peggy

Thank you, Peggy. I was pretty sure I must have skipped something, so I looked up Karin

Enzie,

I'm starting a new portrait, so I took a little section in the upper right hand corner to repeat the "white ball" painting directly on white canvas, and it worked fine.

I used W/N ivory black for the blue, yellow ochre for the yellow, alizarin crimson for the red, and W/N burnt umber for the black bottom. The ivory black definitely looks blue, and the umber looks black.

Peggy

Peggy, thanks for checking it out. Maybe I didn't get the same result because I used Winton Ivory Black. It's an inferior grade and a left over from my college days. I will try it again using Artist's grade.

I am looking forward to seeing your new work.

Whew...this is a tough one to straighten out in mere words but I'll try.

My infamous "Royal Robe and Globe" that Peggy shows is my workshop exercise of "the painting that explains everything you need to know about painting in one quick lesson."

I show my short-cut underpainting method here...flat areas of paint approximating the final colors (sort of like a poster) with light and shadow delineated. I used acrylic for this base coat to make it "flat" as it needed to dry before stage 2 and workshop time is short. Oil works too, but requires several coats.

In the underpainting for this picture I used black acrylic (or black gesso) for the black area (under the table) and black + white for the background.

If you paint black oil paint straight from the tube don't expect it to look good...it will be "dead", take forever to dry and always look dull. It is better to use a flat black underpaint in these areas.

Beyond the initial layer in Peggy's example above (i.e., underpainting), black must be built up in thin glaze layers. You can glaze other dark earth colors into the layers of black in order to build it up (i.e., prussian blue, burnt umber) to a sparkling and clear black. You must not use any pigmented colors beyond the first coat (underpainting) or you will get mud.

As to making blue from black + white, you can probably use any black paint that you have handy and here is how it works: The color "blue" is relative. That is, the colors that surround it make it appear blue.

When you surround black + white with earth tones, it will appear blue. If you use modern chemical or "neon" colors, it can look like gray. Elsewhere on this forum, I have listed my "Old Master Earth Palette" and have indicated the glaze colors vs. the opaque colors.

"The Pot and Peach" still life below (sorry for the crummy photo) is an example of a painting done entirely without blue paint. In fact, the background has a lot of yellow ochre and raw sienna painted into the black + white. But you probably wouldn't know unless I told you so.

Thank you Karin for replying back so soon. I have finished the underpainting last night of Peggy

Fruit Vendor-applied suggestions!
 

Did wash on onion bags and pumpkins with mix of black, white and thalo blue as suggested by Michael G.


Increased highlights on clothing+ lit up face some more, to bring figure forward as suggested by Marvin.

Toned down eggplants with wash of turp, burnt umber and dioxazine purple as recommended by Peggy.

Tried to achieve poetry as suggested by Mr. Weistling.

How is it?

The highlights on the clothing are not showing too well on the post. Sorry about that.

What I meant
 

This is more like what I was proposing.

Enzie,

You have been armed with a lot of very good advice and I have taken more than a few notes for my own selfish needs.

Another consideration, in addition to hue, value, and intensity of color, is the one that should be part of the planning stage. And that is the need to compose in a way that the objects in a background are drawn and painted as though they continue behind the foreground subject. Or to put it another way, the foreground figure should overlap background shapes. This avoids the two dimensional look that occurs when objects are cut out and pieced together. Your objects were drawn and darkened just as they approach the figure in attempt to make them go behind and, instead, it tends to make them appear as isolated, two-dimensional shapes. As objects they tend to begin and end at the edge of the figure. The shapes in the lower right corner that look like they are poking the merchant in the rump will still look discomforting in any new color or value. As big and intense as the pumpkins are, they stay behind the fruit/veggies for the reasons I noted above.

Hope this helps.

Despite the problems it might bring, I like your spirited color approach.

Opinions of the Artist
 

After looking at Marvin

Enzie,

This is just a quick and crude attempt to show that the pose/composition plays a big role and contributes to the feeling of depth or not. I usually encourage and practice doing thumbnail roughs to help decide layout and composition. I have cropped and retouched a little but the figure now commands more presence and I now feel that the background doesn't have to be doctored as much.

You've been a good sport. Don't feel overwhelmed. A lot has been thrown at you.

Jim, thank you for taking the time to play with this image. Because of the initial post regarding the copyright issue, I am not able to post the lower portion of the painting. Having him stand full size definitely changes some of the elements. Maybe it was a mistake to post the painting with half of the information missing.

After I wrote my lengthy response I sat there and just looked at the painting. That

Enzie, I really have general advice more than what you should do in this painting.

If everything is bright and full-strength color, nothing stands out. If your goal was to show the light on the bright colored vegetables and have it look like light, you need dark areas near it to show the light. Without shadow there is no light. Without light you have no form. And too much light kills the form and the effect of the light as well. Not that you do not have light and dark areas, but if you have light shining on a bunch of fruit they cast shadows on other things, and things not in the picture cast shadows on areas of the fruit. And the bunch of fruit as a whole has a light and a dark side.

If you try to put all of it in the light, you get nothing but the appearance of local color, not the color in light and dark and from. Also, to have depth, you must have form. Although you have given form to each individual vegetable you have little form on the bunch.

The bunch should have a light and a dark side. Like a tree painted with each leaf having detail, you must also paint the tree as a whole or it is flat.

In my small modification, I did not really take the time to be accurate to any light source; I was just trying to give an idea of what I meant.
But as you look at the pumpkins in your painting, they do not have much shape as a whole. By showing the shadows of one on the other, and then having a distinct light and dark side, you give them form, and put them in space. The reason your figure seems to sit in the same space as the background is because the background seems flat as well. And that is because the light source you have is not casting shadows that give form. Without form, there is no depth.