Daniel Greene's Palette
 

I've studied with Daniel Greene several times, and I've used his palette for years. Over the years. I've begun "branching out," but in times of stress or indecision, I find myself going back to his set of pre-mixed colors.

Has anyone else studied with him, or used his palette? He makes no bones about it being basicallly a "yellowish" pallete, but he also points out that if you see other colors, it's no problem to mix them, which it isn't.

Dick Budig

Just last evening I had occasion to look through my file from Greene's workshop, and as much fun as I had there and as much as I learned, I confess before everyone that I just have never been able to bring myself to spend the 45 minutes that it takes me to mix the full palette of colors that he starts with. The fact is, though, that decades ago he visited museums and made meticulous studies of what hues were the most likely to be found in the best portraiture work, and so he premixes those to avoid wasting time while his VIP subjects are sitting on the model stand.

However, I don't have yet the privilege of working from subjects who have to catch the Concorde to London at 3 o'clock, so speed isn't my primary consideration. I guess I'm happy to mix up colors as I need them. Sure, I have a basic flesh tone, which I lighten and darken, warm and cool, but no, I don't pre-mix 60 or 70 hues and values.

John Sanden (another pre-mixer, so much so that he sells the pre-mixtures under his own brand name) kind of bemoans Greene's fame, while he (Sanden) is reportedly (by Sanden) chided for his "formula" mixes. I think Sanden and Greene are doing pretty much the same thing. Greene seems to me to be a little more willing to say, okay, what I see isn't on my palette of 80 colors, so I'll quickly mix that one up special. I sense from their respective video demonstrations, and my personal visit to Greene's studios, that Sanden says more often than Greene, "close enough". And usually both Sanden and Greene are right.

I won't live long enough to paint like either of them, so I'm making up time by shamelessly stealing everything I can from both of them.

Premixing a palette
 

Steve:

Yes, it takes some time to pre-mix Greene's set of colors, but not 45 minutes. It used to take me quite some time, but now, I can do the whole thing in just a few minutes. For me, it is a bit like a piano player doing a few scale exercises before playing music.

And, after years of using Greene's method, it is surprising how many of those colors you bump into on a subject. And, it's really not difficult to customize any of these pre mixed colors. For example, a tot of black or raw umber into yellow ocher will give you some of those curious greens, or a little alizarin into his cad red mixure will give you a different red . . . and on and on.

It was, and still is, nice to have a bunch of "general" flesh tones laying there that I can pick up and use as is, or alter with nothing more than the addition of a dab of something else.

Please understand, I'm not promoting his, or any other system. It's just that when I started, I didn't now flesh tone from anything else. I was so surprised, in my first Greene painting demo, when he picked up a wad of his dark mahogany shadow tone (aliz crim - sap green -- cad yel med) and put it on his canvas! And then, he started using reds and yellows and oranges! I thought flesh was flesh toned -- I just had no idea what that was.

Now, like you, I often start in with a clean palette, mixing what I need. But, if it's going to be a long session, or a session with many considerations, I find that Greene's premixed batches of color help me by eliminating some of these decisions.

He was/is right when he talks about how he visited museums to find all these colors, in that it is quite surprising how much of the time these are, indeed, the colors you run into in painting flesh.

Nice talking to you. Have a nice day.

Dick Budig

Yes, I was not being critical of Greene's palette, just admitting my own laziness in mixing it up. I'm sure I would get faster at it with more frequent use. And you're right, being able to just pick up the color note you need, with or without slight modification, really turbocharges your painting session. I liken it to having a good supply of pastels ready to go.

Interesting that you mention the sap green / alizarin combination, as no matter what "palette" I've set up, I now always make sure those pigments are there, just because of that rich dark shadow that the mixture imparts.

For those reading who may not be familiar with this palette, it includes:

Flake White
Ivory Black
Prussian Blue
Raw Sienna
Yellow Ochre
Naples Yellow
Cadmium Yellow Medium
Cadmium Red Light
Alizarin Crimson
Burnt Sienna
Raw Umber
Burnt Umber
Sap Green
Thalo Green

The full pre-mixed palette involves combinations of various of these pigments, with graded additions of white. His video demonstration would be, at the very least, essential to understanding the full process and appreciating the range of colors mixed.

This is an interesting topic. Would someone mind sharing the formulas for some of Greene's pre-mixed flesh tones?

Thanks,

Renee Price

Sap Green
 

Lately I've read somewhere that Sap Green was less than permanent, maybe in Sanden's book(s). I've always used sap green, because I like it. Lately, I've wondered if I should throw it out, but now that I see Daniel Greene uses it, it must be ok. What is the story?

Renee,

It wouldn't be at all productive to attempt a verbal explanation of the palette. In addition to the tube colors, you wind up with over 50 mixtures (mostly white-tints), the subtleties between which can only be appreciated visually (and then only with practice.)

The best introduction would be either one of Daniel Greene's oil videos, or for about $10 or $15, his coated cardstock publication, "The Portrait Palette of Daniel E. Greene, N.A.", on which is illustrated the complete pre-mixed palette.

Write to his studio for a product catalog:

Studio Hill Farm
Rte. 116
North Salem, NY 10560

I am not able to find a web site with his products. I was particularly interested in his videos. Any help on this?

Mike,

He doesn't have a web site. I was supposed to do one for him at one point, but then he decided to not move forward. You'd probably have to contact them directly to buy the video.

You can get Daniel Greene's videos through F&W Publications, 1-800-419-0421, or PO Box 2031, Harlan, Iowa 51593.

Thank you very much, ladies.

Video
 

Mike, I found this link in an old post of Steve Sweeney's. I just bought the old pastel and the oil videos and received them within a couple of days.
www.Art-Video.com

Regarding sap green, there is no question that it is one of the relatively fugitive pigments. I don't have information as to what that means in terms of how long it will be before noticeable degradation occurs. Some manufacturers are now marketing a "Permanent Sap Green". For what it's worth, here's a question and answer clip from Richard Schmid's site: :
[QUOTE]Q.

Thanks, I didn't know it could be mixed. I've seen the Gamblin Sap Green called permanent, maybe that's mixed.

Doreen,

Gamblin's permanent sap green is indeed a mix of very sound, permanent colors. However, it is NOT exactly like the real sap green.

Genuine sap green is fugitive and while it is one of the loveliest colors imaginable, I wouldn't use it. It won't last.

Bill

Thank you so much for responding. It's too bad because Sap Green is such a useful color. I'll try to mix, since I love a good experiment, then I'll look at the "Permanent" ones on the market. Thanks again.

A stroke of genius
 

Thank you. Once again, the name of this site has proved itself. I've been having trouble with the shadow cast on the throat of my current portrait. The comments on Alizarin and Sap leaped out at me...and my problem is solved.

I feel as if I should send each of you a check for classes. My formal training spanned the ages of 12-18 with a wonderful artist named Marie Burton, in Itasca, Illinois in the 60's. From 1974-2000 I didn't pick up a brush (long boring story). I'd give anything if she were here now, but in her place, like the angels I love to paint, I'm drawn to all of you.

I think the proceeds from my first sale will come to this site.

For now, just hold my I.O.U :)

Little confused as to the use of sap green for the shadows. I like to make a transparent black by mixing sap green, alizarine and ultramarine blue. Also like to use it for the rich dark mahogany tone spoken of earlier. Should sap green be made by mixing viridian, cad yellow and transparent red oxide as suggested by Virgil Elliot and then using this in the mixture for black and dark shadows?

Just to stay in Virgil Elliot's good graces, I'll jump back in to say that the sap green "mixture" I quoted was from Richard Schmid, not Virgil.

As William Whitaker mentioned, the "permanent" version of sap green now available through some manufacturers isn't quite the same hue as the sap green you might be used to. Nor is Permanent Alizarin exactly the same hue as your old tube of alizarin. So if you decide to prudentially switch to the less fugitive products (I'm doing so, as I replace my old stock), be aware that you'll have to make some adjustments in your favorite mixtures.

Since Daniel Greene's palette includes around a dozen mixtures that contain nothing but sap green and alizarin (a series of warm shadow colors, and a series of cool), I would be most interested to hear from anyone who knows whether he has any misgivings, these decades after developing that palette, about their inclusion. I would think he'd be the last one to invite long-term physical degradation in his work. Yet the current advisories generally echo those of Schmid and Whitaker.

Actually, pending that, I think I'll write to him as a previous workshop participant and see if he'll comment on the issue. If I receive a reply, I'll post it here.

Thanks, Steven.

I too have started adding new paints by Gamblin: Permanent Alizarin and Flake White and his version of ultramarine blue. Thanks for the info on Sap Green, I'll be interested to know what Daniel Greene has to say.

More on sap green
 

After watching Mr. Greene's oil video I took note of the brand of paint he uses, Lafranc & Bourgeois, and found a web site for them. On the palette page they list their sap green as "Permanent Sap Green". So, my assumption is that he's using a mixed sap green too.

Administrator's note: try this site as one of many offering L & B paint. http://www.allartsupplies.com/item.asp?cid=172 My browser couln't translate the L & B site from French.

Permanence
 

Forgive my novice questions, but I'm a little bugged about the permanence issue. I love using Alizarin and Sap green, now together. Is there any meduim that can be mixed with colors that would bind, and improve a pigment's permanence? OR is there a time line for the color loss/shift.

ReNae,

Questions about permanence (other search terms include "fugitive color" and "lightfastness") have been getting increasingly rigorous attention, not unlike questions about, say, toxicity, or discoloration caused by varnishes and various oils and mediums. It's just a sign of the times, that more qualified people are asking searching questions about the quality of the products they're using.

There are many painters who have gone to the trouble to conduct sometimes years'-long tests of various pigments, usually under accelerated aging processes (such as placing samples in long term full-sun exposure). Traditional sap green and alizarin pigments have reportedly done extremely poorly, some accounts indicating substantial fading in only 2 to 4 years. In similar conditions, many of the new "permanent" offerings do extremely well, with little or no degradation. Virgil Elliot, who brooks no inferior materials, has written that he's very impressed with Gamblin's permanent alizarin, which he says looks and behaves very similarly to traditional alizarin.

The overwhelming weight of advisories that I've seen are to take lightfastness ratings very seriously if you care at all about what your paintings will look like in 10 or 20, not to mention 50 or more, years. I now find myself always checking for a Type I or A rating, and if I accept a Type II or AA (or B), there has to be a pretty good reason. Under no circumstances would I purchase paints with ratings less than that.

So why are the fugitive pigments still on the market, and apparently selling well? Probably because of a lack of informed decision-making by those paying the price twice, once at the check-out counter and again, unwittingly, as the pigments degrade over time. I received some pretty reasonable training, and I try to pay attention most of the time, and I was never cautioned about the problem of fugitive pigments. To compound the problem, even if you're trying to be responsible about the matter, there's no uniformity amongst the manufacturers' rating systems. Some use Arabic numbers, some Roman. Some use A's and B's, some single A's and multiple, some "plus signs" [+]. Are two plus signs better than three, or worse? Two A's better or worse than three? It can be hard to find out, and only a search through the manufacturer's literature will tell you. No wonder the tide is slow to change. (Maybe a most-to-least bar would be a useful standard, with a mark to indicate the quality of the pigment you're holding. If they can do it with salsa, why not paint?)

All of which is why I will pursue the issue with Daniel Greene and try to get his thoughts on it.

Meanwhile, I'd suggest that both you and I get into the permanent sap greens and the permanent alizarins offered by various manufacturers and start mixing them up and seeing if there isn't something in there with which we can proceed happily and confidently.

Invisible paint
 

Steven,

Sounds like a plan. I've written to L&B to ask about the ratings of their "topic" pigments.

In the meantime, standing by for 50+ years to see if my painting vanish gives me yet another "raison d etre".

It just goes to show ya', it's always somthing.

Thanks,

p. s. I've a friend teaching in an American school in Taiwan, just look for the red-headed guy.

It'll be interesting to see if they respond. Greene's first pastel video paid advertising homage to L&B, but according to him, there was legislation enacted at one point that required L&B to state the constitutent ingredients of their pastels, and they were so adamantly opposed to revealing those trade secrets, they ceased production instead. (Is this so? I don't know. I've worked in pastels but not of late, and I don't know if L&B is on the market.) They seem to be a bit suspicious of enquiries about their products. Greene's hundreds of pastels (his taboret is the size of a barn door) are now comprised of various other manufacturers' products.

Alternate sap green mixture
 

The following sap green substitute mixture is on John de la Vega's palette.

2 parts burnt umber
1 part thalo green

It behaves itself in flesh shadow mixtures with permanent alizarin, but it dries faster than I like because of the earth color. I'll experiment with Schmid's mixture.

For whatever it's worth, both Gamblin and Winsor and Newton now market permanent mixed versions of sap green. In my opinion, W&N's version comes closer to duplicating the beautiful but fugitive buckthorn berry variety. Gamblin

Lefranc & Bourgeois
 

I have found the website for Lefranc & Bourgeois oil paint colors. This site shows the lightfastness, transparency, etc. for each of their 'colours'. Hope this helps!

http://www.lefranc-bourgeois.com/rac...e_cadre_gb.htm

Gina

It was mentioned in this thread, "Traditional sap green and alizarin pigments have reportedly done extremely poorly, some accounts indicating substantial fading in only 2 to 4 years."

A couple of years ago I did a test of alizarin crimson by painting three squares of 1) pure alizarin, 2) one middle value (mixed with white), and 3) one light value, on two separate strips of canvas. I put one in a drawer and one on a window sill with north light. There was no direct sunlight. After only six months the one on the window sill was two to three values lighter, the pure one being the least changed. The one in the drawer was unchanged.

I would expect the same results with sap green.

Steve Moppert

I have received a response from Daniel Greene regarding the questions raised in this thread concerning the fugitive or lightfastness qualities of some pigments. I

Daniel Greene's palette
 

Regarding Daniel Greene's palette, there is a fantastic article on his palette, specifically for portrait painting and for flesh tones in particular, in this month's (April 2003) edition of "The Artist's Magazine".

It started many years ago as a piece of canvas with mixtures he knew to be skin tones, and then he literally held these up to Sargent, Vermeer, Cassatt and Rubens in galleries, and refined it to the palette he uses now.

It's followed by an article on building the structure of the head by Michael Shane Neal, which is also excellent!

Pesky sap green
 

As to that pesky sap green thread...I've discovered you can make those lovely burnt reds, rusty reds, and reddish browns several ways, none of which use sap green.

A little aliz crimson, burnt sienna (transparent oxide red, too), and ultramarine blue. Fiddle with it until you get the depth and warmth you want.

Plain old cadmium red light and ivory black will produce some interesting rusts, reds, browns.

Alizarin crimson, cadmium yellow med and Prussian blue will also make some of those intense rusts/browns. You have to fiddle with, and tweak these colors too. But, actually, you can make any color (almost any color) there is with these three and white.

I used to mix Greene's sepia green mixes (also using sap green, alizarin crimson, and cadmium yellow). You just go heavier on the sap green, dull it with alizarin, and lighten it with cadmium yellow. However, I found few uses for this. If I need greens, there ares raw umber/yellow ocher, ivory black/yellow ocher, raw sienna/black, and so on.

For those who have wished Dan Greene had a web site, there is good news. He will have one in the next months done by none other than your's truly.

Richard,
About two years ago I started using Grumbacher's Thalo Yellow-Green as a neutralizing color for the red/orange/yellow bse in skin tones.

When you squeeze it out of the tube, it looks like a neon mistake, but it has the advantage of desaturating the reddish color, without changing the value, which in turn eliminates (or at least reduces) the need to use white to return the mixture to the desired value.

Cynthia, How exciting! His site will be spectacular, I have no doubt.

Kinda getting away from Greene's palette
 

Odd, and fun, to see this thread still going.

Over the last several months, I've begun modifying my palette away from Greene's. I've moved more to Indian and Venetian for reds, yellow ocher, and burnt sienna pretty much round out this palette. Greens can be mixed from various colors when needed for neutralizing, and I've begun using a mix of black and raw umber, lightened in about seven values from DARK to very light. I use these as a general neutralizer.

Another good palette, especially for delicate female skin tones, is very limited: A darker Naples yellow, Rose Madder (for those who are afraid of fugitive alizarin), and Cerulean blue, with white, of course. Actually, you can mix the yellow and blue in varioius proportions to make a good neutralizing green. You can get those slightly bluish/greenish cool tones, aw well as some soft oranges and pinks with these few colors.