With due respect for the possibility that appearances may trump reality, there simply is no evidence that it is even a reason, much less a strong one. As for new members who have "never" posted, an equally unsupported explanation may be that lots of artists who very understandably wish to become proficient and even excel are also people who not wish to even risk the possibility of critique, which they read as rejection. (I'm not being judgmental -- I'm describing an earlier version of myself.)

Many members routinely go out of their way to make sure to welcome new members who announce themselves in the "New Members" threads. That welcome is sincere. The vagaries and permutations of what happens in threads thereafter is not a withdrawal of that welcome.

Cynthia can correct me on this but I suspect that the number of views for a given thread includes views by nonmembers, who would not have had posting privileges to lodge a reply. So perhaps the fact that 36 people looked at the image and only 1 responded means only that of 5 of the actual members who viewed the image, only 1 felt that he or she had something useful to contribute. (Though it happens, this has rarely been a forum in which a long string of one-line "Way to go!" replies is posted. Usually there's an effort to either say something constructive -- whether positive or "negative" -- or nothing at all.)

I very often bring the Forum up just to see what's going on, even though I don't have time to contribute anything. The next time I come back, the little "light" isn't lit anymore, because the thread is no longer "new," and so I may never get back to a thread that I might otherwise have posted in, had I had the time. Truly -- I have not thereby adjudged the posting artist to be "unacceptable."

As to other matters, I can only reiterate that giving away so much of your own power and potential by investing so much of it in whether or not somebody else pays attention to you is a Mapquest search for Heartache, USA.

There's another phenomenon in play as well, though we're getting afield. There are members who have, over months and years, received literally dozens of elaborate critiques on their work (some of whom never changed a thing in response to them!), and yet never once themselves offered a critique, because they "didn't feel comfortable giving critiques." That's the nonparticipation that I find least defensible.

Maybe another reason why there may be fewer critiques is the need to go out to the index... select critiques, then enter the password to see what's there... especially when time is limited, I often visit without even logging in and just check 'today's posts' to see what's up.... When I logged in to post this reply here, I was shocked to see how long it's been since my previous login and what an lot of posts there are in those sections that I've missed. . .

Don't get me wrong... I like that the critiques section is protected with a login requirement... (I've got some, umm earlier work in there that I'd rather not have popping up on search engines!) But wonder if there isn't a way to make it so that if you are simply logged in as a member, the critiques area comes up with the 'new posts' too rather than having to go back out to the index to find the critiques area... I always found the critiques area one of the most interesting and valuable parts of the forum, and part of what kept things interesting and dynamic.

This Forum is not just about posting one's work for critique and it's not just about learning to paint. It's also about exchanging ideas, tips, resources, marketing ideas, experiences in workshops, etc. One can join and never post for critique. That is totally optional. We always hope to find new talent who will do critiques so it doesn't always just fall on a few.

So, I don't think the lack of posting is just about lack of critique response. There are some who have been approved for membership who really are so good they are beyond critiques and they probably know it.

I do think that putting the password on the critiques area makes it cumbersome and less frequented, but was done at the request of a few members who didn't want their work seen by the general public.

Enzie's comments
 

Enzie's comments


Since I can't post in Enzie's thread, I thought I would post here (congrats Enzie on great comments!). Perhaps getting new moderators for some of the sub-fora would work: some moderators just never participate and their fora are virtually dead: for example, the historical thread and artists of the past, but there are others.

Put out a call for new moderators and see what happens (Cynthia, I am sure there are knowledgeable people out there, who are willing to do this). I like Sharon's engagement and involvement, and see her as a model for what other moderators could do in stimulating discussion and participation. If a moderator doesn't have that time or engagement then perhaps it's time for them to "retire."

Also, there used to be a whole lot of materials and techniques discussions, grafted on the tradition and the past and there's almost none left. Finding some key players with interests and expertise in the field would work, instead of endless threads about photographic references and digital cameras.

Finally, allow me to say that some forum members are a bit narcissistic: they never comment on other's work, but expect to be cuddled when they place a piece of theirs in the critiques section. It doesn't work that way....

Marvin's comments
 

Marvin's comments


I just posted a reply called "Enzie's comments," and also wanted to add something to Marvin's comments.

I agree with him that something seems to be "broke": frankly, I believe that the forum needs some more engaging and engaged moderators (at least for some of the threads), just like if this were a business, one would be looking for new, more engaged managers. There used to be high brow artisits on the forum; now it seems only Whitaker and Mattelson are left.

Why not stimulate the participation of other established artsits, for example, by offering them a guest column or something similar? Focus on technique, I would add, and the participating members will come flocking to the forum.

Sybilla

Suggestions on how to improve participation on the forum


Perhaps the SOG forum could improve member participation by adding a few more interactive features

Although I'm not a member of WetCanvas, I do like their "classical artist of the month" feature. SOG might consider a similar rubric centered on classical portrait artists of the past. Artists essential to the field that come to mind are Anthony van Dyck (Belgian, 17th century), Velasquez (Spanish, 17th century), and Sargent (Anglo-American 19th century).

Sure, some threads exist about some of these artists, but by nominating them to artist of the month, the discussion becomes more focused. Members could add web sites, photos of these artists' work, or could decide to make a copy of the chosen artist. Same for technique and media: have the moderator of that forum choose a particular techique for the month, say scumbling, and invite replies from members. In other words, try to reorganize some of the threads and make them time-sensitive by nominating topics to topic/technique/artist of the month. Same for colors, surfaces, grounds, brushes, the possibilities are endless.

Crucial note: moderators of these threads should have the time to participate in a meaningful way. I'm sure we all appreciate the time and work of the existing moderators, but it is a given that some don't seem to have the time any more, so consider replacing them by individuals who do.

Sybilla

Sybilla,

I like your idea of artist of the month. Check out my blog on Ludwig Deutsch.
Something similar would make it fun, wouldn't it?!

[blockquote]Same for colors, surfaces, grounds, brushes, the possibilities are endless. [/blockquote] Excellent idea!

Maybe one of the moderators can please move Sybilla's suggestions over to the other discussion about how to improve the forum's participation.

There are a lot of good ideas here. I do have some comments and clarifications:

1. The only responsibility of a moderator is basically administrative. To oversee topics, make sure they are in the right section, move them when not, merge when they should be merged, make sure things stay on topic, make sure members are not tearing each others eyes out. All other participation by moderators is optional.

2. I've said this before, but it bears repeating. The Forum is secondary to the main site, unlike WetCanvas where the Forum is basically the site. This Forum was created for either professionals or those that are highly dedicated to reaching that and show promise in that direction. There might be a few Sunday painters that are so talented that they might be members. I'm just talking about the main focus. The purpose is to offer a platform where practicing artists can exchange information AND, hopefully, contribute to the growth of others. This might be simply by giving a meeting place since portrait painting is a lonely profession. Part of the problem is that those who are very successful often don't have the time to participate.

3. Finding new moderators is not an easy task. Not many are willing to take that on. I haven't seen any volunteers yet in this rather lengthy and interesting thread. And, there are certain standards for moderators - such as a history of helpful and diplomatic participation and a certain quality level in their work. There are a number of people I have asked in the past who did not have the time. Putting a greater responsibility on a moderator could make that task even more difficult.

4. I have in the past planned to have contemporary guest artists who would do a step by step demonstration. There were a couple tentatively lined up, but they never came through.

So, all these things take time and thought, not only for me but for the moderators and Board. I personally rarely participate in the Forum any more. With over 150 artists wanting my design skills, there just is not time.

If someone would like to volunterr for something, speak up and I can submit it to the Board.

I agree that it would be energising to have an artist of the month feature, although perhaps focusing as well on the actual forum members would be more stimulating. Or perhaps even painting of the month. I suggest we have a new section for monthly features, activities etc. with Enzie as moderator. I think with the energy and incentive that Enzie has for doing this, it would make a valuable and most interesting addition to the forum.

I would also suggest a section for members work that is not portrait or figure might also be useful, although I know that this kind of thing was voted out in the past in order to keep the forum focussed on portraiture. I think, though, that a number of members are doing other kinds of work and would like to post them here. I, for my part, know that my landscape sketches really do inform and develop my figurative work, and I would very much like to post them as a compliment to my figure paintings.

Thomasin, all I can say is :sunnysmil - you are too kind!

I don't think I need any more on my plate then I already have! LOL

Sybilla,

Thank-you for your kind words.

I believe in sharing what I have learned. I walked around in a desert of ignorance for many years before the internet made it possible to exchange ideas. I remember just how grateful I was to find something so really valuable- how precious it was to me.

There are many other Fora that seem to have more participation and excitement- but look at the content and quality. Many people thrive on the in your face "your mother wears combat boots" kind of discourse. The boards light up and the brass knuckles come out. Contributors try to outdo themselves with clever repartee and downright salacious and pornographic comments. I lasted in one of those about two weeks and found I learned nothing at all.

We have a wealth of very fine artists here, not just moderators as members. I think they as well could start more topics- research them as well. Sometimes we have time just to referee.

Enzie,

If you pardon me- that is just the problem. You just criticized the Forum for being a bit slow. Criticism is cheap and easy- actually working to make it a more interesting place takes work from all of us.

Sharon, I agree talk is cheap!

A little sampling of my contributions, they speak for themselves...

Today posted in : Visitors' poll

Enzie,

I blush! :oops:

You have been one of our valued stalwarts. I wish others would take a hint!

More suggestions?
 

Dear Cynthia, Enzie, Thomassin and Sharon:

Thanks for welcoming my suggestions, which were just meant as ways to improve traffic and contributions on this fabulous site.

Sharon has been a very active moderator, as mentioned before, but I still think it would make a world of difference if Cynthia could "hook" a few more proactive moderators, who could get things moving again. Even if such active engagement was not part of the original moderator profile, as Cynthia reminds us, now might be the time to look into engaging proactive individuals. The difference between highly active SOG members and SOG moderators then would be that the latter commit themselves to *regular * contributions or interventions.

There are other rmoderators who have been highly visible, such as Mike McCarthy, who had a terrific thread on compositions, which he kept alive himself, even when members were not responding. Sharon, too, has been injecting similar information at times when there wasn't much traffic (and of course Enzie, in her capacity as member). But other moderators never or hardly ever show and are virtually invisible. Or they might at times briefly praise a member contribution, but that's about it. Just like a charity doesn't work when its volunteers are inactive, so this forum may be suffering from having some kind, willing but ultimately inactive volunteers around.

Sybilla

I infer that the rest of us are middle or lowbrow? I wish you hadn't remarked on this. Now Marvin is going to challenge me to a game of 3D chess, or (the Horror!) bridge.

As a Cro-Magnon brow, artistically speaking, I can yet imagine a number of reasons other than organizational failures as to why a regiment of the elite may not congregate in an internet forum to discuss the biz, and why it's much more complicated than just "getting better people."

1- They don

Steven I agree with all the points you have made, but there is also a lot to be gained. I am not going to attempt to draw a line between those that are at the top of the ladder and those which are awfully close and do comparisons by name dropping, because that leaves it open for a lot of debate. For the sake of argument, lets talk about the artists who have successfully sold their work in the past, have won awards, might be thinking of conducting a workshop or want to fill classes.

1. Forums offer a "stage" for sharing one's work and technique.
By doing so, any artist whose work is of a certain admirable scale, will inevitable gain a following of admirers. Admirers in turn translate to possible workshop participants.

2. It is a place where you can perfect your teaching skills. For those attempting to make the jump from painter to teacher, this is a perfect place to try out and see what works and what doesn't. Ideas can be gained on what issues to include in one's teaching curriculum.

3. A "world-wide" recruitment opportunity
I have organized several workshops for other artists in the past and I can speak from experience that it is not always easy to fill a room. It's not due to a lack of willing participants, but sometimes it is just hard to get the word out. When you hear workshop participants traveling through continents to attend a workshop, you also often hear that they saw the instructor's work on the net, often through forums.

4. New Client
Other artists can sometimes be potential customers. I have seen many an artist, who has purchased a painting from a fellow artist. A sale is a sale, after all.

Personal Fulfillment

1. Sharing your knowledge
I don't know why, but many artists have the urge to share what they have learned with others and a forum gives them a less structured and less time consuming opportunity then a full scale workshop.

2. Exchange Information
Technical discussions, new materials, news, what a fellow artist has done, etc. Unless you are a very active artist who mingles around a lot, it's a place to stay informed.

3. Learn new things
Yes, even the most accomplished painters out there need to be reminded that there are ways they can improve. Nothing is more deathly than a stagnant technique.

4. Meeting others
Even though darts fly at times and feelings get trampled on, forums also offer an opportunity to meet and converse with a lot of nice people who share the same goals. Even the "top brass" ;) might run into someone they would have otherwise never met.

5. Support
Some artists live in remote areas and have made friends on forums, gotten together outside of cyberspace. All people, no matter what stage in life they are at will have insecurities, feel beaten down and at a loss. It is always nice to find support in someone who actually understands what being an artist means.

In Paris, artists of the same school of thought would get together on a weekly basis, discuss, argue, share and help each other. We on the other hand live in a place, where getting together with a like minded person we can actually do shop talk with lives anywhere from 30 minutes to several hours away. And that's if we are lucky!

I believe that even the most accomplished painter can benefit by being a participant in a forum and I would love to see more participation.

No question that the forum provides those benefits to the members and the far greater number who simply come to read.

It's said that there's no better way to be sure that you understand something than to explain it so that another understands it equally well. "Distance learning," of which this forum is a kind, is a difficult way to teach some concepts. When I have critiqued a piece in the past, the motivation was partly selfish -- I was equally engaged in calisthenics to train or retrain my own eye and sensibilities as well as those of the work's creator. I learned something from the effort, or at least reinforced something, and that in turn made it easier for me to critique my own work. I didn't always do particularly well at it, but we're all learning as we go.

I also have benefitted greatly from Forum members' recommendations of books, DVDs and workshops, even if those authors and teachers have never been here "in person." All those materials opened up entire new practices and schools of thought. And I have stolen lots of great ideas from other members themselves, and learned from their example.

Though I have met very few Forum members in person, I have worked and interacted with many, over 4 or 5 or 6 years, which has created bonds of friendship as strong as those with people in my own real world (or IRL, as they say.) I "talk" to several people here more often than I do to some members of my immediate family. My son was in grade school when I somehow first "found" this site, and he's now in college. Only a lot of good will and a feeling of professional value received could make so many people stick around for so long, and it's something that is available to anyone for the price of admission (free). Yes, there is attrition, but there are also new members each week.

So, yes, there are lots of good reasons to be here, to be taking full advantage of what can be found here, and to use the Forum as professional leverage to get the word out about one's own work, workshops, philosophies and the like. My earlier post wasn't intended to muse about why people generally may be reluctant to join and participate, but only to respond to the narrower tacit inquiry as to why the Forum doesn't make an effort to have a greater number of "big names" on staff. (Since I haven't been "on staff" now for about three years, I don't have to ponder exactly how far below the "big name" standard I land, though I know it's a long period of freefall before impact.)

In defense of my friend the other moderators- not that they need any.

I work at home, I have no children. I have a great deal more time. I only do portraits when a client shows up to pose, otherwise I do my own work.

I am not :

A: Jumping on planes to photograph a client.
B: Handling a full time or part-time job.
C: Driving kids to school, soccer games, doctors, dentists etc.
D: Cleaning my own house or mowing my lawn.
E: Dragging my kids around to look at colleges.
F: Poring over college scholarship and entrance forms

Again, I have more time.

I had to talk Linda Brandon out of doing endless private painting critiques sent to her by members. She is an extremely kind, talented and generous women, notwithstanding being a full time parent of teenagers, teaching and doing portrait commissions.


Many of us, perhaps in many people minds are lower tier painters, however we struggled and did not have the information given here gratis at the touch of a key pad.

Many people enjoy being entertained, because they are bored. They also want instant answers to why they can't paint- magic bullets. That is not what we are about.

I think you made some really good points there. I just wanted to add the flip side of it and point out benefits.

You are absolutely right Sharon! I think regardless how much time any given person has, weather moderator or forum member, we all need to remember that no one gets paid here, everyone has time restrictions (some more than others) and what is being shared is on a voluntary basis. Something that is easily forgotten, but needs to be respected, never the less. We just need more volunteers!

Geesh, Sharon.
I am aghast. I am not that nice. All I do is paint. You too, I know!

Anyway, I made the highbrow comment to pique Marvin, who is not even reading this thread.

Moi! A second tier portrait painter! Now you tell me. :)

Seriously - if we worry about judgment - whether we will be deemed Major, Minor or Mediocre, by other artists, bored internet surfers, art critics, the marketplace or history - dear God, does that ever get in the way of getting good work done. I don't care at this point in life whether I'm "good" or not, I'm just trying to create paintings that I like.

And Enzie, you sure are stepping up to the bat - thank you for all your contributions to this place!

Linda, it's my pleasure! ;)

Linda,

Me too. I have a collision of worlds , as I know you do as well--

this commission world is unto itself,

Well said, Linda,

that's excactly the way to think, this has become my "excuse" and way of making peace with art history.

I don't believe that good art can derive from anywhere else than your own heart.

One can learn from others but it's the personal touch that makes it art.

If this topic is still about - daring to enter and participate on the forum - I'd say, that's the attitude :thumbsup:

"My work may be good enough to qualify, but I'm intimidated by the jury process

I'm just shy in general and don't like to put myself out there on any forum"

The quote above is where I bet a good many members listed on this forum might be emotionally. Of course, being too busy to post might be another very good reason. And it's a very very good reason for a moderator not to be able to do all they wish they could do.

It's hard to put your work up for critique. A person's art is like a piece of yourself. To hear that it needs improvement is difficult to hear but necessary for growth.

I'd rather hear what needs improvement, even if it sends me into temporary despair, than a million "attagirls" with no guidance.

To any artists out there who are afraid to ask for critiques, either on this forum or with fellow artists: please make yourself do it! You will ultimately be happy you did.

From another talented moderator who has been tremendously generous with her time.

Yes, you belong to the client until the picture is finished.

really now...
 

By and large, the work here is not of very much substance and the discussions also lack depth.
Perhaps it is not that you are too exclusive. Quite the contrary...

Weighing one's words
 

Hello Linda:

*More* high brow painters used to be on the forum, is what I wanted to write, meaning member painters who are not moderators (like yourself).

Obviously, as must have been clear from my posts, I did not intend to insult anyone, but just to offer some helpful suggestions.

I still believe having proactive, energizing moderators, who contribute on a regular basis and can keep conversation or debate flowing, is the way to go. Naturally, some people have more outside duties than others, but a minimum of contributing activity is to be expected if one takes on the role of moderator....From our perspective, it's a bit strange to see that this fabulous site has moderators who have been silent for most of the past year or not made substantial, meaningflul contributions.

Gratitude and thanks, of course, to all others who have been active and energizing.

Sybilla

I've just finished re reading this thread, I posted several months ago, and the discussion is very interesting. Obviously the forum needs an injection of new ideas, new people or new inspiration. THis is my first year on SOG and I'm still a relatively new portrait artist. ( I painted my first portrait 3 years ago, today) I work hard at my portraiture and avidly seek out any source of information in order to improve my painting. This can be via attending art galleries, shows, workshops from visitng pro artists, joining societies and of course participating in forums similar to SOG. There are many artists out there just like me who also seek input. We are prepared to pay.
There are also many top level portrait artists out there who are striving to make a living, this includes second tier aritists ( as previously descibed) and don't have time to do freebie critiquing.
I can see an obviously solution. If there was a section on SOG were I could pay a professsiosnal or talented artist to critque my work I would willingly pay. Any artist that wished to participate could list their name on the SOG section and members could contact them via email or PM for a critique. SOG would retain a small fee for the service. The critiquing artist would be reimbursed for his/her time and the member artist would get a critique from an artist they admire and respect. WIn/win. Critiques could be posted on SOG for all to read at the discretion of the paying artist. I'd have no problem posting my critiques for all to read as i had already gained the value of having my work critiqued .

Just a thought.

Bruce

I actively log in and search the forum threads for answers to my questions about my portrait business. Just today I needed to know how to price giclees for a new corporate client. The help I have found in this forum has been invaluable and without it I would not have been able build my 4 year old business and long waiting list to where it is today. There is still so much I have to learn. I

Dear Patrice,

SO many of us here face the same "mom" stuff that you do. We really get it. For those who don't have the perspective, it is huge.

I hope that you will feel welcome, and that there are many painters who are where you are,

Critique subforums
 

I don't understand why the Critique Subforums are off limits to guests. It seems to me that this would be an excellent way to judge whether we feel our work is of a standard by which we could then apply for membership and participate.

The Critique section is also a terrific way to learn from other established artists, i.e., what to look for and especially, how to 'see'.

Some members requested that the critiques area be password protected to keep out the search engines. They did not want their clients to potentially see their work being critiqued. Maybe there's a way for guests to be allowed in. I will check it out and report back. The password is right on the home page of the Forum.

Actually, the critique sections are open to all. All you need to do is type in critique. That's the password!

Thank you! I wasn't aware of that.

I paint to escape grief. The portrait is the greatest challenge.

i enjoy the forums - the opportunity to gain information/knowledge is great. Thanks

Elizabeth

Reasons for not taking part
 

Even though I like your web very much. English is not my mother tongue, so that I am afraid of not being able of expressing adequately my technical and philosophical points of view on the different topics that you discuss. If you could be understanding of possible errors of expression, undoubtedly I would dare to take part.

Your post alone indicates more than enough command of the language to be able to easily participate. There are several members whose posts reveal that English is not their dominant language, yet it rarely if ever is an impediment to understanding. If a usage or misspelling is confusing, someone else will simply attempt to clarify it on your behalf. I think you would find that any effort to express yourself would be welcome and would be accommodated without any criticism.