Luck shouldn't play such a big role.
 

Well, it seems I agree with everybody on this thread. Like Marvin and Sharon, the benefit of being taught by a master is beyond compare. My teacher, John Murray (same as Marvin's) was the best thing to happen to me since being born. There were six-hour workshops on Saturday, 3-hour ones on Monday night, and sometimes I traveled to his private school in Long Island after work. Students came from as far away as Reading, PA, Philadelphia, PA, from all around New Jersey, from upstate New York, even from as far away as Troy (a suburb of Albany). So, for those with a will, there was a way.

Meanwhile, I must remember how serendipitous it was that I encountered this teacher at all. He was on a panel of faculty in the School of Visual Arts Illustration department making their presentations at a "career night." He explained his philosophy, showed slides of his students' work, insisted that one semester of a class would not be enough to turn anybody into an able painter. On the basis of that presentation I picked his class to enroll in, and continued doing so happily for the next 11 years. If I had gone to that career night a couple of years earlier, or one year later, he wouldn't have been on the panel and I may not have ever discovered him.

There is something tragic, if not criminal, that aspiring artists have to pick through so much chaff to locate a grain of wheat, when it comes to finding instruction. Whether it's at a workshop or at a local college, you pays your money and takes your chance. I, too, took many art classes before encountering my teacher. They were usually pleasant, but I felt that I was going to have to grope for insights, rely on happy accidents, "copy nature" and hope for the best for the duration of my art career. So, I programmed computers, instead.

There is an excellent book - I think lots of you already know about it - by R.H. Ives Gammell, The Twilight of Painting. (Moderator's note: this book is currently out of print.)

He excoriates the modern art movement for leaving students of painting bereft of decent and consistent instruction. My teacher used to say that all artists before the modern period spoke the same language. Van Dyck could go to Italy and talk about an imprimatura, and it would be an imprimatura, and everybody saw the same thing in his mind's eye. Hue is hue, value is value, and so on. Between the first world war and now, the art "establishment" undertook to blow this body of knowledge into smithereens. Only the mavericks, usually illustrators, acquired this old knowledge and passed it on. It would be the lucky ones who would stumble onto this or that rare maverick.

Now classical realism is enjoying a come-back, and it is palpable how much people are aching for instruction that isn't all that easy to find. Individual artists or students of art shouldn't be to blame. In fact, the task of locating capable instructors should be undertaken collectively. Marvin's got his hand up; I've taken some classes from him, and he's good. So, there's somebody in New York. Now, what about Iowa, Texas, West Texas, Louisiana, Arizona, where I see people on this forum posting from?

I could see where the portrait societies (ASOPA, PSOA) could undertake to vet instructors. Members of distinction, who were students of Gammell or students of Reilley or who have comparable credentials could begin to review the teaching methodology and work of candidates, issuing a seal of approval to the successful ones. Then, students who really want to learn to draw and paint, but don't want to wander in the wilderness for a couple decades, could look for an ASOPA- or PSOA- accredited instructor.

After a few iterations, we could even, possibly, end up with a decent craft guild, or an association or two with teeth, or clout, or whatever. And then, when someone on the forum critiques with 'you need to master some basics, first' it won't sound like the kiss of death.

I think this thread has twisted and turned, but it all has been very interesting to read.

A question I was interested in asking the

On the question of styles: Beth, if someone on the forum posted a piece like any of the four you showed above, for a critique, they would be showered with praise, even though some of us may not like their particular style. (I'm not a fan of Bouguereau's over-sentimentality though his technique is awe inspiring.)

The technical mastery shown in these works is what we critique for, not "style."

Dang Michele, you figured out they were not mine? :)

I was just asking if "style" has any influence on some critiques.

I

Thanks, Catherine. A cup of hot chocolate served at The Adrenalin Bar.

If, as most seem to have agreed in principle from the start, this Forum (nor any other) is not a substitute for intensive, long-term, hands-on, one-on-one studio instruction from an accomplished master, then it is at the very least instructive in apprising the serious student of the value of seeking out such training, if the goal is to work at a professional level of success. Anyone who doesn

Too touchy feely for me!
 

The last time so many people agreed with me was.....I can't remember! Now I know how Sally Fields must have felt.

The fact that people like Sharon and Bill do agree with me goes to show that the choice to be a realistic artist is a life long journey, a long and winding road, and having someone to guide you along part of the path can help you avoid some unnecessary detours.

Steven, I too used to love to play guitar. I couldn't be a slave to two masters so I gave up playing but I love to listen to solo finger style guitar greats while I paint. For me the best of all possible worlds.

I think my work here is through, but before I head back to the dark side I just wanted to address a point raised by you Elizabeth. I'm glad you've chosen to be in the Greensboro workshop. My goal is to make it a week to remember.

Although certain teachers may try to impart a singularity of style upon their students, I am not one of them. I don't teach "style." I teach a broad based approach to painting that seeks to clarify the choices each artist has at their disposal. The goal is not to paint like me or Bouguereau or even Pino (that's his first name by the way) who was an illustrator for many years and who I know personally. Your goal should be to paint like the best possible Elizabeth Schott.

One thing is for sure. I don't think the world is ready for another Marvin Mattelson. I think Sharon would agree with me on that point as well.

On our own nickel!
 

Peter,

On a previous post I descibed one of the numerous critiques Marvin gave without hope of remuneration or mentioning a workshop.

Often the student looks like the teacher until he has the confidence to fly alone.

My teacher said that style is simply your limitation, you have to learn the rules to break them.

One of the members on this forum is interested in working in a more contemporary style, I applaud him. However this is no reason not to do the heavy lifting at the outset. The artist he admires is Euan Uglow, a tres modern British artist. The man is a consummate draftsman and has a very original and beautiful style. He takes as long as a year to complete a painting. He was thoroughly schooled in the classical techniques.

I taught at the Rhode Island School of Design for three years. There is no way I would send a sensitive gifted child there. It was one of the most depressing experiences I have ever had. One graduate project was sardines enclosed in glassine bags suspended from a ceiling.

None of the teachers there are major artists, but poseurs hanging on to their feifdoms. It attracts the lazy and monied from all over the world. I could go on. Classical painting techniques are frowned upon as so hopelessly out of date. The student drawings, yeech!

Marvin must be getting nervous now, but I'm sure we'll ramp it up in the future.

Sincerely,

An Old Buddhist Saying
 

"When the student is ready, the teacher appears."

[QUOTE]Even with the resurgence of interest in classical training, it has to be somewhat bewildering for the student in search of that training to find it. We so often read professionals