The voice of treason
 

Jim,

I fully agree with that Forum member who questioned the usefulness of reading the musings of an artist whose work one finds fault with. If he practiced what he preached his rhetoric is suspect at best. If he didn

Other one
 

Marvin,

It was the other one. To the credit of American Artist, they have done recent redeeming articles like the one featuring that wonderful human being and artist Morgan Weistling!

My bad
 

Tim- OOPS!

Or dudess. A number of members have spoken well of Harold Speed's books. The painting volume was revised to include an anti-modernism chapter. I should think that alone would elevate it above suspicion here, Dover publication or not. Even if not, reading outside one's specialty or ideological tracts is thought by some to be one of the hallmarks of the university education. More should try it. It's fun -- and bad for wars, international, internecine, and interpersonal. But "treasonous"? What an odious epithet and how unworthy.

My kids have been in a variety of public and private schools, in the U.S. and abroad. The amount of classical art they've been exposed to, and the kinds of art technique they've been taught, amazes me, because I'd always heard that no such things happened in traditional educational venues. I've learned firsthand the untruth of those claims. With no input from me, my 14-year-old son will often select a realistic exhibition catalog from one of my shelves and spend an hour or two working through it. He's a little more reluctant to wander with me through galleries and exhibitions, but only because I've dragged him through so many, and his young teen mind is on skateboarding and guitar riffs.

My daughter's at university, and upon first arriving at campus, I was hoping that a tour through the art building would be enligtening. It was, but disappointingly so. Apparently the resurgence of interest in realism hasn't successfully assaulted the citadels of academia. Were she an art student, we'd have had a pretty serious discussion about whether a degree in that program would be worthwhile. Certainly we wouldn't have decided that, well, it's awful stuff and you're not going to like the curriculum and it's four long years, but at least you'll have a degree -- and then professed outrage at its being worthless. Last I heard, no one in this country is compelled to stick with a course of study they consider worthless. Choices have been made. (Though, from another perspective, if the "worthless" degree makes one angry and frustated enough to take responsibility for finding the education and training he or she now wants, the degree isn't in fact worthless. It's a motivator, no accident. It was exactly what the student needed to develop maturity, make more discriminating choices next time, progress to the next level.)

Even with my children's good experience with art instruction in their schools, I don't abdicate my responsibility or privilege to try to enhance that classroom experience. If I want my kids to have an appreciation for the arts (visual, musical, literary), I don't say, Gee I hope they learn it in school, and unless I've been on the school board or an activist for changes in curriculum, I don't hold schools accountable for not teaching higher levels of art technique and appreciation that most adults have trouble with, if not disinterest in.

My instructors found artists to teach them, and those artists sought out their own instructors, all in an era in which such instruction has supposedly been unavailable. The people who were not to be turned away from their passions found their teachers, they didn't find excuses. In that respect, this vocation isn't any different from any other.

There's perhaps too much whining and scapegoating and mongering in all manner of prejudices and bogeymen, and not enough individual initiative and hard work.

Later . . .

There's a New Yorker cartoon in which two dogs are sitting in a bar and one says, "It's not enough that dogs win. Cats have to lose."

The lines here are sharply drawn, sometimes with unbridled vehemence, usually with strong feeling. I'm not sure how this cat and dog thread will play out, but I'm content that enough's been said to permit thinking and tolerant members to make up their own minds. I've had my say, thank you, and will now unsubscribe to this thread.

I've got a painting to work on.

Marv, I believe you have it bass ackwards. The gist of my post was to suggest a larger and inclusive view of art. Your suggestion is very singular and narrow. Your post does NOT offer an alternative view. It insists on one view/opinion only. If we were arguing religion you would suggest the exclusive teaching of one true religion where I would favor courses in comparative religion. I refuse to believe that you have to belong to my faith to be saved.

You seem to suggest specialization in education before the general where you might otherwise be better armed to know where your goals and training fit in the larger scheme of things. If one has lofty expectations and high hopes of making significant contributions to the visual arts, I would hope they might be willing to take on an ambitious course of study and risk being "dazed and confused". It's called education.

I am truly disappointed and amazed at the behavior of an irresponsible art teacher. My friends from the same school were quite surprised to hear the story and suggest that it was atypical. I am no less amazed to hear of 25 years of delay in getting the art training you sought. How is it possible?

My attempts on this thread have not been to sell a point of view but to give consideration to all points of view. I do not wish to draw a line or have a loser. I simply see no merit in characterizing those who conceive and paint differently than I as "snots", "snobs", and so on. I don't think the heathens eat babies and bark at the moon and simply do not think demonizing all else enhances our genre of painting. If inclusiveness and consideration of art as an experience larger than my own preferences and skills is in error, I plead guilty.

P.S. I have only heard the best things about Harold Speed's drawing book and I plan to add it to my next Amazon order. It will then pass it on to my young neighbor who now has all my other drawing books and thinks he may do someday what you and I enjoy doing as artists. My recommendation for Henri's The Art Spirit has little to do with his style of painting and is not a how-to book (although it contains quotes from critiques of student work) as much as it shares technical advice as well as those other intangibles that make paintings special. I promise you he does not sell a particular style of painting and you will find no threat.

This thread is a wealth of information! I love to see all the strong personalities jumping off my screen!

My brother in-law was the head judge for the Winter Park Art Show in Florida (I believe it has a lovely reputation) for many years. I can't comment on how the judging was done, but I am guessing by slides, even though he was fun to walk around with. We would just look together at a lot of beautiful artwork and played a game of finding litho prints - which were not supposed to be there. I wasn't there for final judging so I am not sure how it was received.

Marvin, in the same light he was also the Governor of the Advertising Federation and won their top national award. He did not judge Illustrator Arts but I am sure he did a CA Annual - most top agency owners seem to be called to judge - but I know that is some steep competition - kudos to you.

Side note - same brother-in-law was sick the day he was supposed to judge the "Chili Fest" so I got to fill in. You haven't lived until you have judge 50 variations of chili.

Or better yet, your 1st grade daughter wins the best-in-show for a paper bag fish she made in elementary school! So Mike I know how you feel. It is displayed proudly by my picture of Nancy Lopez and baseball signed by Barry Larkin.

P.S. I am surprised that you guys speak nicely of Thomas Kincade, because that whole art form makes me ill. I wonder if he studied under the guy who started velvet paintings. Or if his first retail spot was at the corner of a busy intersection with Elvis carpet and gym shoes. I think it is a shame too, how some really nice art shows have become craft fairs!

and...
 

Just once, I'd like to hear the winner of best of show say, "I'm glad one person liked one of my paintings." That's what most contests really mean.

Marv-in speaks
 

Jimbo,

My name is MARVIN. Marv is my evil twin and we never are allowed to mention him. Mommy cries if we do. BTW I really don

Amen Brother Marvin, Amen.