Mark,

Thank you for your thoughtful post. I remember when you registered and we were excited to have someone like you as a member. As a museum curator, I would think there would certainly be a way that you could contribute, only if a little. I'm open to ideas.

Cynthia

To those who have chosen to attack and criticize:

Conclusions that some have made about my motives and who and what I am when you have never met me and spoken to me are quite amazing. Until you have run something like this, until you have run a venture of this size (including the main site) - I think the saying applies that you can never judge a person until you have walked in their shoes.

No doubt we have made some mistakes - as with just about all organizations, there are growing pains, changes in policies, improvements, attempts at improvements, etc. We are always happy to have those here who have a wide breadth of understanding and realize that most are here to learn, teach others or both and that their motives and mine are good ones. We are also happy to have specific suggestions for improvement.

Some posts I don't answer because it is not clear to me what you are suggesting be changed - only that you don't like how things are. Other times, I am simply too busy with other work - artists waiting for their web site to be updated or planning the SOG dinner at the conference.

For those who have concluded that I am a snob, I can do nothing about that - but, do you really know me? I have seen time and again on the web that people easily make inaccurate conclusions about others. Perhaps a better approach would be specific constructive suggestions without attacks.

Thank you
 

I am so pleased that you might consider having a colored pencil portion of your site. There are some very talented artists in this medium. While it is not conducive to live portraits, the original sketch can be done from life, then photographs taken and completed that way. I have done several using that technique. I will prepare some works for submission upon your return. Thank you again.
Maurica Midge Reynolds-King

I'm not sure that any medium has ever been excluded -- sequins might not make it through, though squid ink might -- but in any event, there has long been a good number of very fine colored pencil postings on the Forum, most of them in the "Other Medium Critiques" section.

You can find them by going to that section, clicking "Search this Section" at the top of the window, and typing <colored pencil>. Or do the same search for all sections.

(I have attempted to provide a linkable URL, but it won't link -- perhaps because the critiques area is now briefly password-protected. And if you don't already know -- the password is <Critique>.)

Thank you Steven
 

I checked it out, and the work there is very good. It was worth it to see the comments made to those of us who do not use oil. Their work is very inspirational.

I appreciate your allowing me to browse on this site. I have learned so much and apply it each time I do a new piece.

Maurica Midge Reynolds-King

Membership feedback
 

I very much appreciate the point made respect the jury process regards people posting who do not have basic drawing skills within their grasp and hence the policy. However I think the Forum misses a trick. Steven Sweeney's sight-size method is the first repeatable stepped process, in my view of all the library books, etc. I've seen over the years, that gets even close to taking a structured studied approach to drawing and the articles on tone are fantastic. That article has inspired me to take a path to achieving proficiency of that technique and Steven's encouragement in his language has helped to do that as I know it has for others. I also hear that passion in Mischa's dialogue. So your site can help people who are not pros achieve their ambitions. I'm not sure that I agree with the entry criteria of seriously pursuing a career in portraiture, surely the gift you share is for helping those of sufficient interest to progress their ambitions in portraiture if simply to achieve a high quality even as a semi-pro or indeed amateur. Whilst that sounds a little negative I can assure you that I have a great deal of pleasure and value from this site regardless of the policies and I can only thank the membership for sharing as they do and spending the time that they do doing that. I do intend to submit in the near future and hope that I am accepted in my desire to improve my artistic skills for the pleasure of others and indeed earn money from it and give up the day job!

Best Regards
Robert Walker

I tried to register and was refused, which I couldn't help but find insulting. I'm a professional artist and regular contributor to several other fora. I'm also a member of my local art guild's Artist Review Panel, so I understand the jurying process and the fact that rejection is not usually a personal matter to the juror. I feel bad about having to reject artists too.
I rarely visit this forum because it's frustrating to see people that I know having a discussion and not being allowed to join in.

I do appreciate this one time opportunity to be heard.

Respectfully,
Todd Cooper

The fact that there are often as many as 100 times as many guests reading threads on this Forum as members attests to the fact that there's something here worth having a look at. There's a great deal of worthwhile material elsewhere, too, but here there's a focus, and you won't usually have to wade through 30 way-to-go posts in a technical or instructional thread before you get to the next substantial offering.

For what it's worth, this analogy regarding the application process for participating in this Forum. I work for a company that last week sold off a small part of its operation. It's a publishing company, once a book publisher, now 98% electronic (Internet, CDs, DVDs, and such). The "small part" of the operation that was sold was a college text division, still publishing books, and it simply didn't fit within the mission of the company anymore. There was NOTHING else wrong with it, as evidenced by the fact that this very small element in this huge corporation just sold for over 7 billion dollars.

Similarly, not being juried into this Forum as a participant doesn't mean that an applicant may not in fact be a magnificent artist, perhaps wildly successful, and teaching many classes. It just means that the work actually submitted with the application -- which is the entirety of what the administrators know about you -- didn't "fit" the mission of this Forum. Sometimes the applicant simply isn't ready. Sometimes the applicant's work is great, but isn't in the vein of what this Forum is about. What it's about is thoughtfully stated at the top of the page every time you open up this Forum and see the statement of purpose and interest for the Forum.

A feeling of "insult" is painful from both sides, and certainly is never the intention here. There could be no rational motivation to inflict insult. There are other forums that get off on that, but this one doesn't.

It's simply a site dedicated to the highest levels of excellence in portraiture and in the training of dedicated and disciplined artists to achieve that level of work. It doesn't make a dime off of it. There are no awards and little prestige. Everyone does it for his or her own reasons, but there are sure a lot of other ways that top artists could spend their time. That many spend time offering something back here is something worth capitalizing on, as evidenced by the fact that when I signed on recently, there were 2 members and 103 guests reading the Forum posts.

Principles before personalities, as they say.

Interesting point - though it would seem that those who are pursuing pro would usually be the most dedicated and thus the most developed, but there are no 100%'s.

Wow, what a thoughtful and appreciated response.

And, yes, the Board does hate rejecting applicants.

To be honest, I have not had time to go through all the posts in this thread but do think a word or two, on my part, would not hurt. Actually, I hope that by sharing my though, in regard to the forum, I may benefit someone.

I try to be a person of but a few words. Still I try to convey my thoughts the best I can with the limited palette of words. It has been my personal observation that most on this forum have had their moments of ups and downs. These could be moments of personal struggle or an encounter of verbal misunderstanding. What ever the case it is a part of life that nudges each one of us.

I have also observed, the short time that I have been here, that individuals join to receive and many have also to give. What ever the case in question it is good to hear and it is obvious to see that the forum has contributed as well as benefited. As in any situation there is always room for correction and improvement and in my humble opinion I see Cynthia doing her best to grow in this respect. This section or thread the Visitir's poll is a small indication of that. Sure each has a personal agenda why they do something but the generosity should always prevail.

I personally appreciate all that the generosity I have received on this forum and find that the more I give the more I receive.

Thank you to my new friends and my not so friends. My sincere best to all and what ever your path may you find what you are looking for

I don't think the opinion that the site's too "haughty" or "snobby" is a good enough reason to take all comers. I agree with a previous poster's ideas that presently registered people need to be encouraged to post in order to attain the critical mass of relevant and frequent posts.... but there are gobs of posts at WC, with its egalitarian registration process, and the place is a landfill. Sure, there's the occasional treasure, but you won't catch me digging through it to find it. I might get typhus.

This site could use more posts, but the posts that are here are beautiful and well-thought out.

Me too.
 

I parrot what the poster says above. I would post here if I could register with anonymous information. I have had nothing but headaches when I used information disclosing my true identity. Thank you for allowing me to comment here.

I have to agree with "Unregistered" ;-)

Seriously, I look here because there is the occasional nugget of good info for the serious representational artist, which is what I consider myself. However, I am not nor will I ever be a portrait painter, so although I'd have no qualms about joining, I don't have any portrait examples to show for an entry.

Jeff Gola

Too busy with life at the moment...
 

Dear Cynthia,

I think this forum is amazing and I am always amazed by the standard of the participators, as well as their helpfulness and generosity.

A single mother of two smaller children I never seem to get around to finish my paintings. I am since appr 5yrs a regular visitor - albeit not frequent...

Hope to join some day - in the meantime I admire and learn.
from Sweden

Hello,
I've just recently stumbled upon your wonderful forum. I have not registered because I don't feel my work would qualify. I don't mean to be rude, but I find it odd that you must have your work judged to register for this forum, something I've never seen before. Don't get me wrong, I understand the reasoning behind it but I feel it would make more sense to have forums that everyone can enjoy without having to "audition" while still keeping some forums blocked off(many forums do this). I feel it hurts the student who doesn't have finished works yet or who isn't up to par, the very people who need the most help.
Best regards,
The Lurker

Another surprised reject
 

Hi Cynthia
I am a reject that continues to lurk from time to time. I submitted two of my portraits about 12 months ago and was quite surprised to be rejected. The advice that was given to me from the judges was that I should work on my drawing skills and my understanding of tonal value. I always thought that I was reasonably competent in these areas, at least on par with the majority of registered members.
I am a professional portraitist, albeit not yet full time, I am working on building my client base with the intention of going full time in the near future. I still peek in the window now and then to see whats happening and to research anything I particularly want to know about. I even purchased Chris Saper's excellent book through this site.
I am now a member of several other forums and regularly submit comments and critque for the many members there.
It would have been nice to be part of SOG, but 'c'est la vie'
Bruce Johnson
www.brucejohnsonart.blogspot.com/

What a shame, Bruce. Could it have been the works you submitted? I've seen a LOT worse from several of the members here.

I can't remember which portraits I submitted, but they would have come from my blog..
www.brucejohnsonart.blogspot.com/

Hello Bruce - I just had a quick look and personally thought your work was very strong, there's a lovely light on those pieces...

All the best
Mary Jane

The Forum has evolved, going through many permutations during its life. Both administrators and members come and go, new areas open up for discussion, others get played out (or self-destruct), and expectations are modified periodically when something isn't working or is counterproductive or could simply be done better. One notable case in point is the change in the application requirement of work produced from life.

Anyone who has previously sought out participating membership in the Forum -- especially if a year or more ago -- and who sincerely wishes to have posting privileges and believes their work and their input would be in sync with the stated practices and goals of the Forum should consider re-applying. (But don't fall into the trap of comparing your work with the lesser-accomplished efforts you might spot here. This is a workshop as well as a gallery, so yes, if you look for them, you'll find some pieces at various stages that may not be up to your standard. Be grateful for your talents and stay focused.)

I tried this past spring to get into a graduate writing program. I had over 70 publication credits, including many extended pieces in national magazines, and I've worked professionally as an editor for nearly 20 years. This was a shoo-in. Yet I was barely home from the interview before the rejection letter showed up in the mailbox.

I admittedly had some of the feelings of resentment that I'm "hearing" in some of the posts in this thread. It helped that, before I began the application process, I acknowledged that, if I got in, I would be doing a huge amount of reading and writing in the coming years -- and if I didn't get in, well, I would be doing a huge amount of reading and writing in the coming years, because that's what I do. I would have loved the opportunity and discipline of this particular program (there were easier ones, but I wasn't looking for easy), and I think I could have contributed something back to it. But for reasons I'll never know -- perhaps I made an inapt selection of writing samples to submit, or perhaps I just didn't sell myself as professionally as I could have -- I won't be joining them.

But it doesn't mean they made a mistake (oh . . . yes it does -- I'm still a little miffed) and it has nothing to do with whether I'm a competent writer or whether I'll continue to publish or even break through to commercial success. (So far, it's not time to quit the day job, but when that agent calls with the news, I'm outta here.) It doesn't prevent me from re-applying next year, or applying somewhere else, or simply working to a more personalized syllabus to continue to hone the skills. It won't keep me from publishing, if I marshal enough discipline to turn out the work, nor from cashing the checks.

Same thing on this Forum. It's an imperfect process. Be persistent. Try again. At the very least, continue to read. When I signed on this morning, there was one member on the site (me) and 125 guests, all presumably absorbing and learning and, perhaps, getting their work ready to put out there. We all wish that every one of those 125 readers would put together some wonderful, suitable portrait submissions and join us.

You don't suppose that verbosity had anything to do with the graduate thing, do you?

I have read your forum off and on for several years. I've wanted to join but honestly, I have been intimidated by your statement on the first page not to register if you don't intend to post because the jury is all professional working artists who don't want to waste their time. I don't know if that is exactly how it is worded, but it's what I understood it to say. I work full time as an architectural designer (B.Arch) and also run a pump manufacturing business my late husband left me. I was born an artist, and I paint as I can. Although I paint more than I ever did, I still don't paint enough to jump into doing portrait commissions, although I would love to do that. Therefore, I have very few portraits to show for the jury application process or posting. This is such a good forum filled with so much helpful information and encouragement. I will continue reading as long as allowed, and some day when I have enough inventory to show, I will apply for membership.

Vernita Bridges Hoyt
Texas

I don't speak for the administrators, but I do know that there's no reference anywhere to their wasting their time. Wasting time isn't the issue. I think it's just disappointing to go through the process with an applicant and then never hear from him or her again. This is especially discouraging when the new member's work is very good, and his or her participation would be extremely valuable.

The application process is a lot more involved than is the case with the typical online Forum (where you provide your email address), and in fact each application calls for input from quite a number of people, all professional artists and all very gladly volunteering time to this Forum, some for many years, as well to many other causes and concerns. Most of them also lead workshops and head up demonstrations and, perhaps, get to Mexico once in while when it's cold up here on this end of the continent.

Goodness, the worst that can happen is that some very kind-hearted people will tell you that they don't believe that you're quite ready. Believe me, that's a gift, not a put-down.

Steven,
Thanks for your reply. Perhaps in a couple or three months, I will feel ready to go for the application. It would be an honor to be accepted into this forum. One can always hope.
Vernita

Bruce,

I see all the applicants because I have to handle the technical end of submitting images to the Board. I have to honestly say I don't remember you being rejected or even applying. It could be that some administrative mistake occurred. I know there are a lot of applicants who never take the second step. Their name sits in the pending applicant area and periodically I prune them out. It could even be that I accidentally deleted you in one of those pruning processes.

I looked at your work and asked the Board to take a look. Seems likely there was a pruning mistake on my part since they also don't seem to remember your work. I'm happy to tell you that your work was approved if you'd like to register - you don't need to take the second step, just the first. You'll then get an approval email within 24 hours.

Vernita,

Thanks for your comments. Perhaps some real statistics and data will help.

Total Juried Members - 278

Posted 0 times - 82
Posted 1 time - 99
Posted 2 times - 16
Posted 3 times - 7

I think it's pretty astounding that out of 278 juried members, 82 have never posted. There are a few of the low posters that are understandable - an art school, for example, that only joined to post workshops, which is fine.

Of the 82 who never posted, a great number of them join and never visit again or visit for a day or two and never return.

No one expects a member to become an addict (some do :)), or even a devotee - simply to participate at least once in a while. But, I find it puzzling that so many are juried, yet never or almost never post - even with explaining away a percent whose lives suddenly changed due to sudden success or unhappy diaster or tragedy, the percent is still high.

Nothing is automatic about the jury process. Once a person submits into a private area on the Forum, these are the steps:

1. I access the web page and click on their post.
2. I move their post to the Board private viewing area.
3. I post "new" so the Board knows there is someone new to view.
4. I wait and read each response as the Board members post their response.
5. I sign into the administrative area of the Forum with a password.
6. I select "yes" or "no" for approval or not.

Cynthia,
Thanks for the info. That does explain it better. I've belonged to a couple of other forums, and unfortunately those were about the statistics for posters vs. members there also. Maybe it's the old 80/20 rule. I lean more toward the "addict" side. Yikes! I will be back.
Vernita

Activity on the Forum
 

Dear Cynthia,

Thanks so very much for explaining the process! I, for one, am a big fan of this forum and hope to participate at some later point. It's a bit strange that some juried members have never posted, as you note. May we add an additional observation? It seems to us that some sections on the forum have very active (or proactive) moderators, who post a lot or start discussions, while other sections seem to have very little activity. Is this something that could be improved on, while keeping in mind, of course, that everyon'e time is always at a premium and that people are very busy?

My reason for not posting
 

This forum is full of information that I could use. I think I don't participate because I have been doing commissioned portraits since 1964 and have grown to hate them. I simply don't accept commissions anymore. My main focus at this time is figurative work and my approach is more creative , less restrictive. But still I need the basic information that I can find on this forum, figurative paintings being a close relative to portraits.

My interest right now is getting a good photographic reference. For 30 years I used my 35mm SLR. Now I'm using a digital camera and have decided to buy a digital SLR. I was told that Garth Herrick posted some info here about his recent camera purchase. I have always been a fan of his and wanted to read it, but don't want to jump through the hoops required to post.
Sincerely,
Linda Ciallelo

Linda,

I suppose your post above shows as "guest" because you are not logged on - but you are a Juried Member here. I remember your work because I really like it. In fact, there are times when I've gone back and reviewed some threads and missed that you no longer participate. Perhaps you would have words from time to time that would help others though.

For those who are not familiar with Linda's work:

http://forum.portraitartist.com/showthread.php?t=2184
http://forum.portraitartist.com/showthread.php?t=1457
http://forum.portraitartist.com/showthread.php?t=1058
http://forum.portraitartist.com/showthread.php?t=839

Linda,

I rarely do portraits either and prefer to do my own work. I haven't had the time to post much recently because I had knee surgery, followed by my husband's hip surgery.

There are a lot of non-portrait artists posting and I think the range has broadened in the last few years. Good figurative painting is still good painting whether or not it is commissioned.

There is no perfect forum. I have tried a few here and there and some as you know are run by some very, how shall I say it, negative and chauvinistic people. Impoliteness and crudity are allowed to run amok in the guise of freedom of speech.

I have bitched and moaned, complained to my husband about this one and that one, then he asked me one day, "Why don't you start your own? I replied " I just don't have the time." There you have it. A forum is a collective. It is managed and mismanaged by us all and kept relatively sane by some tireless moderators. This takes many generous artists a lot personal time.

Say not so, Sharon! Say not so!

Dear M. Agape,

Yes, sadly it it true. I am happy to participate in a Forum that regards civility as a virtue, a place where artists can expect for the most part to be treated with respect and not pilloried or ridiculed for differing opinions. Yes, there have been some heated discussions, but none that have resulted in crudity, offensive language, bullying and harassment, the defenses of those who sadly cannot clearly explain their position or point of view.

I'll second this, as a regular reader of the forum. I think Sharon's critical interventions have always been polite and to the point. People familiar with other forums that lack he same etiquette may know the one Sharon probably has in mind, where dissenting voices are being ridiculed and belittled bootcamp style.

Thank-you,

Unfortunately there are others as well, some are easy to get into, some are restricted.

I do not understand why coarse conversation is considered somehow a good way to present your artistic credentials to the world. It is rather like using a caveman's club to explain the finer points of color harmony, a completely macho approach that leads to resentment and ill-will. Art or beliefs, in my opinion, should not be used as battering rams.

This forum is a good example of acheiving discourse without disharmony.

One forum known for such a ridiculing attitude sells their own line of products and immediately clamps down on anyone slightly critical. It's probably not a good idea to try and mix an "open" forum with marketing your own product.

Said forum has gone decidedly downhill the past year or so as many have noticed. It was always a forum with attitude and attacks on certain opposing ideas and opinions, but of late the attacks have taken a decidedly different bent. Innocent comments and actions by friends and supporters of the forum have been viewed and treated with great suspicion and paranoia along with accusations of malevolence. Given the host's age and the nature of the behavioral changes it's worth considering that all the attitude is not deliberate but might be indicative of a certain illness.

Thank you Cynthia and Sharon for your most kind words. I didn't realize I was already a member here. heh heh I tried to log in but had the wrong name. I will certainly be posting here in the future. The quality of work here is excellent and I greatly admire many of the posters. I agree that the experiences that I have had on some other forums have been somewhat traumatic recently. The effect has been that I have avoided posting altogether and have doubted my own perceptions. I greatly appreciate your kind words .

I am in the process of removing a wall to make a larger studio, and working full time, so don't get much time on the computer. I hope that when that is finished I will be able to post here more often.

Sharon, I hope you and your husband will heal completely and soon.
Linda C.

Thanks for all your replies.

However I did not want this to end up being a critique of other forums.

Many people think we are too restrictive and rather snobby. You should see me when I am painting. I look somewhat homeless, only more raggedy.

I do think it is good to have guidelines and a sort of entrance exam, as, it were. I have seen so many other Fora disintergrate into nonsense and blather by artist wanna-bees, who write endless paragraphs of utter self-serving poems to themselves. Some are not painters but have found a home somewhat like those late night crazies that call up the chat shows.

Linda,

Your work is certainly beautiful and we love having artists of your caliber here.

I look forward to your posts.