At this point it is probably better to agree to disagree. I am more comfortable dealing with evidence than emotion and anecdotal stories. We both have a right to our opinions and experiences.

I do believe that medicine and science are always evolving. Does kinesiology do the same?

When I first saw the posting on kinesiology, I researched several Web sites, curious and wanting to know more. What I read did not convince me. In fact, the opponents made a stronger argument for me. I then posted that if one of the followers of kinesiology could prove the validity of this practice, I would be open to changing my mind. I did not demand anything. I was actually saying that I'm open, but not convinced...convince me. This is not an attack. This is an appeal for more information. What I received was closer to an attack than what I posted.

Again, as I said in the first posting, "I'm glad 'Cynthia' found something health related that 'she' can believe in." I hope you find relief from your problem. Kinesiology just doesn't sound like a solution for me.

Steve

Can you believe it? Spring training is right around the corner. And how bout that El Nino thing coming back?

Steve,

I actually have no desire or interest in trying to change your mind, that's not how I work and it's not my purpose to convince you or debate it. Perhaps you are someone who, in general, likes to debate. My post was intended to present something that might help Karin or others dealing with unusual problems that traditional Western medicine has not been able to help.

You mentioned you were glad I found something to "believe" in. It's not a "belief". I spoke from my personal experience. And, no lack of scientific evidence can ever negate my own personal experience. Perhaps you recall that when I first encountered kinesiology that I was skeptical myself.

What I don't see is that you've had any first-hand experience in the use of kinesiology, so I have a hard time understanding how you can make an informed conclusion.

This is all I have to say on the subject, except that's it's too bad things have taken this turn. Most members are probably running for the hills from this thread.

Hope you don't think I'm a nut.........
 

Hello all,

It's certainly not my intent to debate anything or attempt to change anyone's thinking. In the interest of keeping this conversation interesting, though, I'd like to add a third perspective on scientific evidence vs. other forms of 'proof'. As someone going for an advanced degree in theoretical physics, I think it's a subject that I can speak on with some information (I'd hope that people wouldn't run for the hills from such an interesting topic, but if it's not an appropriate topic for discussion, please accept my apologies, and I'll not post again on this thread).

My personal view on this subject (and I respect that others' will differ) is that science does afford us a measure of objectivity, but it is a method of taking natural phenomena and attempting to put it into a form we can understand. That is, it is an exploration into existence that denies anything but the five senses and mathematical proof (mathematics is used to divorce us somewhat from the subjectivity of our senses). This is one method, and has led to some advances in human understanding. I think this method is decidedly rigid and quite limited.

I'm not trying to "advertise" the qi-gong system I practice, but I think there's a good quote from the preface of the book Zhuan Falun, by Li Hongzhi, which is a transcription of a lecture given on how to practice it.

I also want to point out that the phrase "Buddha Fa" has nothing to do with Buddhism. Buddha is a sanskrit work meaning "awakened or enlightened one", and Fa is Chinese meaning "principles", so "Buddha Fa" in this context means something like "principles of true knowledge" or "principles of awakening", and is not religious in the least, nor does it refer to the historical Buddha (Guatama).

Here goes:

"What can be understood with modern human knowledge is extremely shallow and tiny; it is far from truly coming to terms with the truth of the universe. Some people even dare not face, touch upon, or admit the facts of phenomena that objectively exist, because they are too conservative and unwilling to change their conventional thinking. Only through "the Buddha Fa," can the mysteries of the universe, time-space, and the human body be completely unveiled. It is able to truly distinguish what is righteous from evil, good from bad, and eliminate all misconceptions while providing what is correct. "

Translated from the Chinese.


I hope you can see what I'm saying here,

Nathan

Gee!

I went to a fight today and a health discussion broke out.

I should add that upon the recommendation of her swim coach, I took my daughter to a doctor that used Kinesiology to treat her injury and allowed her to continue workouts through the successful treatments. It seemed like (and was) a better risk than cortisone.

So, this Lutheran and this Buddhist and this scientist go into a bar . . .

Some decades ago (the exact number is classified) I minored in Religious Studies, partly out of keen interest in comparative religions but mostly because of the opportunity to study under the most thoughtful, even-tempered, brilliant professor I ever knew. In this curriculum, we spent some time proving and disproving the existence of God. I forget which side won. It has been suggested that God laughs at all our proofs anyway.

I was quite interested in particular in Eastern thought and religions, and I now find myself residing in the mountains north of Taipei, a vantage from which I'm able to witness the full gamut of medical and well-body practices, from modern Western to ancient Eastern. A few minutes' train ride from me is the National Taiwan University Hospital, rivaling the best Western medical care centers in the world. Along that train route are dozens of Chinese apothecaries dispensing all manner of herbal and other mysterious packets. Every morning at 5 a.m., the road in front of my house is well traveled by people making their way up a nearby mountain path that leads to areas for tai chi exercise. Which of all these practices and approaches is "true", which are useful, which are mere intellectual and emotional opiates? Beats me.

I went to a nearby Zen monastery a few weeks ago to look into a more structured sitting meditation than I could put together on my own. Toward the end of one three-hour session, which had nearly dislocated (or dis-lotus-cated) my hips and knees (my mind didn't wander at all -- it was focused on pain), we were sort of stretching out the kinks with a walking meditation, and the gray-robed Buddhist nun half my height came up behind me with a flat wooden stick and, to my surprise, whacked me twice between the shoulder blades, saying "Too much tense here! Too much tense!!" "Lady," I wanted to turn and say to her, "You don't know the half of it." I'm not sure if I was experiencing alternative Chinese medicine, but in any event, I remain too much tense.

My wife, a completely literal and pragmatic person, has nonetheless undertaken a series of acupuncture treatments, which she swears have greatly moderated her tension headaches and stress-related discomforts. And if she says that's so, then as far as I'm concerned, it is. Doesn't entice me to volunteer for pincushion duty, but that in no way diminishes her experience.

While I do tend to look for explanations for phenomena -- which is why I enjoy, for example, medical doctor Deepak Chopra's presentations -- I do so not so much as a skeptic but as someone who simply wants to understand. That desire can't always be met. In the summer of '91 I was taking my son on a long trip to visit my father, and a couple of days before we left, I sat down in a chair in front of my wife and wept, telling her that this was the last time I'd ever see my dad. This was completely off the wall and had no basis in any facts known to me, and though my wife tried to reassure me, she tempered her response with the knowledge of having seen this sort of thing happen to me before many times. We made the trip, had a good visit, and a few weeks later my 59-year-old father died. Where's the proof of the basis for or existence of my premonition? I haven't any. But it was as "true", as real, as the keyboard under my fingertips.

If you're still reading along, waiting for my "big point", I haven't got one of those either. Just seemed like someone from the back of the room needed to have a say, while everyone else caught their breath. My third cup of coffee has gone cold, and just as well. Time to go to the studio and paint what I *can* see and what I *do* know.

Cheers,
Steven

Nathaniel,

Your post has been most well-received here. As much as a layperson can enjoy and understand theoretic physics, I do. Heinsenberg's Uncertainy Principle and Bell's theorem...I continue to be totally fascinated. (Don't think I have some great knowledge in the area just because I threw out those names). I think your post was highly relevant. I have the Tao of Physics, but unfortunately keep getting distracted from my reading.


Steven,

Leave it to you to provide some wonderful comic relief. You always continue to amaze me with your writing and rapier mind...you had me truly laughing out loud. :) As always, a beautiful contribution. Surely your skills at writing have been previously acknowledged before this forum. If not, they should have been.

And, we are all waiting with bated breath for when the mystery man is going to post his photo.


Jim,

There is actually a difference between Kinesiology and Applied Kinesiology. From the International College of Applied Kinesiology: "Applied Kinesiology (A.K.) is a system using muscle testing as a functional neurological evaluation."

From American Academy of Kinesiology and Physical Education: "Kinesiology refers to the study of movement. In American higher education, the term is used to describe a multifaceted field of study in which movement or physical activity is the intellectual focus. Physical activity includes exercise for improvement of health and physical fitness, activities of daily living, work, sport, dance, and play, and involves special population groups such as, children and the elderly; persons with disability, injury or disease; and athletes."

D. O. & finding the right doc
 

A D.O. is a Doctor of Osteopathy. There is a great deal of overlap in the coursework that D.O.s and M.D.s take in their professional training, but osteopaths believe that disease manifests itself in soft tissue and that doctors must address those symptoms through attention to and manipulation of soft tissue. Not surprisingly, chiropracty (hard tissue manipulation) arose through osteopathy. D.O.s can prescribe drugs. In some parts of the country, they are every bit as accepted for primary care as M.D.s but in other parts, they struggle and have had to adapt. (how do I know this? I previously worked in medical and science publishing).

I think it's possible to find a good doc regardless of training but it isn't easy. I have a lifelong history of middle ear problems. An Iyengar yoga instructor and macrobiotic follower suggested I swear off dairy to avoid further surgery. To my surprise, my Ear-Nose-Throat surgeon agreed that it was a sound idea to try, not quite for the same reasons she cited. After a lifetime of "intimate" relationships with ENT surgeons and more than 10 operations, I finally have one that has explained what's happening and why. And his bacground is...veterinary medicine! He came to the US from the Dutch Virgin Islands to be a vet, discovered medicine and never looked back. I just feel so fortunate to have found a healer who is a teacher as well.

(New kid gets kicked out)
 

Just a point in the way of mediation...

I had it pointed out, if memory serves, by a book on tape by Scott Peck, that doctors do not heal. The body heals itself, all doctors do is create a situation where healing can happen.

I think the initial offense was to the word "believe" which I feel is a very important condition to the practice of healing arts. My story is about a friend. Her husband retired at the age of 65 like everyone else, but he was not enjoying the time of his life, he got rapidly less healthy. When he finally got checked he was diagnosed with cancer of the pancreas.

I hear doctors say you die of that. He had a lot of options, but since doctors say you die, he was not going to go in for all the added suffering chemo was causing so he opted for an experimental study.

They gave him shots and iv's and the usual, but there was one aspect vastly different: The doctor encouraged and taught positive body imaging. My friend would leave him in his room for hours on end as he visualized a golden mesh filtering the disease from his cells. She tended to all his needs and reminded him to eat, but all they did was help him heal. He had a surgical bypass which was some sort of stop-gap expediency so he could continue to function, but nothing was removed. It was impossible.

This man's daughter and son in law were diagnosed with cancer within a month of each other. The daughter died a month after her husband. They fought death, did what the doctors said, vomited through the chemo and were ready, when the time came, to pass on their things to the only daughter. They prepared to die.

The father is 83 today. He is alive. He is well. His body did all the work. Ok, so miracles happen, but then so do people drop dead on the tables from LIPOSUCTION.

Knowing this story has convinced me there is a more than passing requirement of BELIEF in the healing process. It is not meant to offend or condescend, it is important to have a treatment you can believe in.

The children of my friend believed their doctor. My friend and her husband, believed he could live. I hope nothing here offends. I hope my lungs hold out in spite of loving to do pastels!