Dear Renee,

Up to the point that the discussion turned offensive, then I have found them refreshing and delightful in previous threads that I have participated in or read.

After that happened then I stated that it was 'very offensive'. Personal attacks by anyone have no place in a professional atmosphere.

Some people do not like debating, but because I grew up with brothers who did it, I found that sometimes someone will come up with something unexpected and great for all that listened. Something that no one could have imagined or learned without the debate.

The most brilliant people that I have ever been around love to debate. But it's always been with a spirit of civility. I don't like to watch fights of any kind. Debating or other.

However, seeing two very talented artists that offer differing opinions allows the onlookers a great insight to their knowledge and techniques.

Marvin has been quite the gentleman in his replies. That demands so much more respect when one acts as he has.

But, I certainly know that you are right in saying that many people do not like any kind of debate at all.

I understand that and I'm very respectful of your opinion.:)

Celeste,

Thank you for clarifying your position about liking the banter before it turned nasty. I misinturpreted your replies and I apologize for that.

I love a good debate--a debate without passive aggressive comments and snottiness. Too many threads go into that realm of childishness and vindictiveness. I would love to see all debates maintain professionalism without attitude. There is a difference between questioning sources and knowledge, and personally assaulting someone. But until everyone can voice their opinion without concern of being crucified, we won't be able to have true debates.

Renee Price

Amen to that Renee. :)

Well, I have found the discussion between Tim and Marvin to be refreshing and insightful. It's not every day that we novices will get to hear the reasoned and passionate opinions of two such respected talents. Nor, I suspect, will we frequently get to hear their opinions on the criteria for commanding respect. What makes a good teacher? What makes a good artist? The only people I care to hear discuss it are good teachers, and good artists.

And just as I was about to suggest we rename this place the Snorum, too.

I'll take some growling and snorting by experts over the gratuitous gladhanding of mediocre works any day of the week. And "mediocre" was the nicest word I could think of.

Decorum is no excuse. Stiff upper lip everybody! Take sides in private.

Au contraire. Member participation in this Forum is valued and appreciated, but only so far as members act respectfully towards other members, their work and their approach. Explaining bad behavior away as "passion" doesn't make it acceptable behavior.

Please keep in mind that the Forum exists primarily as an educational arena, and secondarily, to foster constructive philosophical debate about art and all of its attendant issues. There exist written etiquette guidlelines that are a condition of continued membership here, and to which we all agreed when we became members. Courtesy and respectful behavior in this Forum are not optional.

Well said . . .
 

Marvin:

Well said.

I judge each painting based on its inherent beauty. Just because I may not agree that the way a painting is created is the best approach for me or my students to follow, I can still have great respect or admiration for the artist who created it.

Not using cadmiums in flesh mixtures works for me and has produced fantastic transformations for the vast majority of my students. I often refer to my students in my posts because I want to emphasize that I don't offer up any information that hasn't been battle tested, first by me and then by them.

Having a continuing group of students gives me the opportunity to see where problems can arise and this motivates me to try to invent or discover solutions. So what I do and what I teach is an ever evolving process based on producing results. If I discover a better way, then everything I teach goes right out the window. I am results oriented. My only allegiance is to the production of the finest paintings within one's ability.

If someone could show me that by using day-glo green I could achieve better results, I'd be teaching my students the Mattelson Day-Glo palette tomorrow.

Once people have control over what they do, they can incorporate whatever colors they see fit. I feel that my method gives the greatest number of people the best chance to successfully paint lifelike complexions. In addition I don't intend to create an army of Mini-Mattelsons. I'm sure all will agree one is more than enough. Therefore I encourage each student to express themselves fully. Understanding the broad principles that govern painting only serves to enhance individual creativity.

Having spent some time with Marvin, I have found him very open and supportive of each individual

Thanks Carl, it looks like the brainwashing took.

HAH! Oh, good! May I have that scrap of food now master?

Seriously, as Marvin full well knows :D , if I didn't feel as per my post about his palette, I'd say so in a heartbeat, or at the very least, say nothing.