Add me to the list of those who aren't interested in juried or pre-screened critiques.

If someone hadn't shaken me up when I was a rank beginner, I wouldn't have started to develop the (usually) thick hide I have now in regard to my work. Tim's right, you might as well start learning to take criticism from the beginning.

And as Karin said, and as I tell my students, there are a million mistakes, and I have or will make them all. So if anyone tells you your work is fabulous at the very beginning, they're lying. And if you're paying them, they're stealing your money. Two of my most recent students, beginners both, told me they'd fired all of their other teachers, because I was the only one who was honest enough to tell them that they had the POTENTIAL to be great (they do), but had miles to go first. Hearing this was a great affirmation, and a boost. I try to tell the truth, I think it's my job.

Karin, I understand your frustration, but if anyone is put off by a hopefully gentle but absolutely honest critique from me, they won't last long and I won't miss 'em. As I've instructed a hundred times, painting ain't for sissies, and if you have a low tolerance for frustration, failure, and pure hard work, do something else.

Please don't change anything
 

To those of you who do critiques, and have advised me and others: keep being honest and true with your advice. Those who get angry are unfortunate in that they are missing a chance to grow. Its not your responsibilty to hold hands here. You don't have to critique, and when you do take the time and effort to advise a fledgling artist it should be received as a gift. To disregard and worse to e-mail your mentor with anger is ungrateful, disrespectful and egocentric.

I have learned so much here, I read almost every post and when I hear that recipients of critiques are abusing the privelige, I get angry.

Rant over,
Jean

I can't imagine someone responding to a critique with an angry email to the critiquer. People post material for critiques with full knowledge that their work will be reviewed and of course they may not like what they hear. As has been mentioned in the past, however, the recipient of the critique has to decide for him or herself whether the advice is consistent with what he or she is trying to accomplish, and whether the area singled out is a chronic problem for them or only an artifact of the particular stage of the work which is under critique. It can also be confusing when several excellent artists focus on different aspects of a work and one indicates that the primary issue is X, while another suggests that the problem is with Y and X isn't an issue. The recipient can attempt to deal with X's concern and possibly offend Y.

Additionally, sometimes at the point at which people are weighing in with their ideas, the recipient of the critique is no longer in a position to act on the suggestions with that particular work, but will incorporate those ideas with the next painting. However, as Steve points out, critiquers don't have to "go back to that dip" if they feel that their good advice has been ignored.

On the other hand, sometimes people with excellent skills and credentials can legitimately disagree about the validity of a specific approach. I'm thinking of the Romancing the Stone thread which seemed to call forth such strong opinions, both pro and con, among extremely talented and experienced artists. People need to remember that there is the utmost respect for the many wonderful artists on the forum and on SOG, and declining to take a specific individual's advice on a particular issue is by no means a put-down of their ability.

When I offer a critique (both here and, earlier, on Wet Canvas) I try to focus on the specific issue that the artist is asking about, unless I can see that the person has had problems with another area in the past and I can mention it as an issue in the current work. Conversely, if the person can normally produce a good result, based on a look at his or her other paintings, I'd mention potential problems but also acknowledge that they've handled the material properly in the past. As Beth commented, positive reinforcement is an excellent teacher.

I have learned a lot from critiques - of my work and that of others - and it's one of my favorite areas of the forum. I certainly hope no one gives up on critiques, but we all have to decide where best to spend our time.

I can dish it but can I take it?
 

Initially upon discovering this forum, I was much more forthcoming with critiques than I am now. I have been a teacher for 30 years and I am very sensitive to the responses my critiques evoke as I "read" my students reactions and try to separate the criticism of the work from the criticism of the person. This interplay is obviously impossible in this venue.

The main reason, however, I don't get too involved in critiques, is that I view the problems people are having as a result of a gross misunderstanding of what I consider to be the keystones of good realistic painting. For example, to offer criticism as to the position of an eye or mouth (applying a Band-Aid to a wound) is pointless when someone misinterprets the structure of a head (a bullet through the heart). These problems cannot be addressed in the format of a forum.

It's my observation that not understanding structure and the principles of modeling form are the two biggest problems I see both here and everywhere. This is what separates modern artists from old masters. These are the main issues I address when I teach my classes and workshops.

Since we are discussing the sanctity of criticism here, I will be totally honest and say the vast majority of work I see presented here, on the forum, is lacking in those two areas. I know I'm going to get buried for saying this but I'm a big boy and I'll take my licks. This is my opinion and doesn't mean I think anyone is a bad person or their mother wears combat boots.

Earlier this year Renee Price and Denise Hall contacted me about coming down to Greensboro NC and doing a workshop this spring. I basically stated what I mentioned above regarding my views on structure and modeling as related to the work on the forum and their work as well. So I set up a workshop to address these issues as well as color mixing (another big problematic area for those who can

No piling on from this corner, Marvin.

Fact is, none of us is perfect and we can all use work on our structure, modeling and color. I for one also agree with you that a good teacher can take you farther than anything else.

I for one would encourage you to keep comin' round and critiquing when you can - we can only but benefit from it. :)

If you think that is the case, why not share your wisdom with us more often? All help is appreciated. A forum of course isn't the ideal teacher-pupil situation, but this is the medium we use, why not try harder to make it work?

Peter

Michael G. earlier alluded to the recently implemented process for vetting applicants who wish to post work for critique. This was responsive to a concern that too many fundamentally flawed pieces were showing up, and overtaxing critiquers' time and other members' interest levels. (Note: This is NOT in the nature of a "jurying" of individual pieces for critique.)

It is not an easy process, either philosophically or practically. We want to be able to provide valuable consideration of and instruction on a range of matters pertaining to high-quality portraiture, but it's not practicable to substitute this Forum for full-curriculum, hands-on art training all the way back to Day One. What we're generally hoping to see more of in the Critiques section is work that presents issues the discussion of which will be of the greatest benefit to the largest number of members, in addition to the more focused and sophisticated elements that may be of particular interest to the serious, working professional.

As pointed out, there's no use instructing on how to paint the "perfect eye" if we can see that you're trying to put it on a formless head. (If the head is formless, then it follows that you won't understand the form of the eye, either.) And more and more often now, when a fundamental problem such as the inability to express form is apparent, you're going to hear critiquers simply suggest the pursuit of training in those fundamentals with an able teacher in a classroom or workshop setting, or by reference to certain types of basic exercises and projects. This has to be done, though it's one of the areas that can generate the sorts of misgivings and hard feelings that are part of the subject of this thread, though that is never the intent.

The other side of the coin is that

Perhaps some basic form and volume-rendering exercises could be created and posted, maybe in the Subject Specific Demo section. Would a couple of those more experienced teachers out there be willing to put something simple together that those in need of help in that area could follow?

Then when a portrait appeared in the critique section that showed a lack of understanding of those principles, the critiquer could direct the " critiquee" (did I just invent a new word?) to the relevant exercise.

I really like a suggestion that Sharon Knettell sometimes gives and that is for beginners to copy Vermeer's "Girl with a Pearl Earring", first in monochrome, then in color.

Teachers needed for "Subject specific demos"
 

Yes, Michele. I would like to see our narrow focus "Subject specific demo" section be enriched and include demos on how to build and strengthen basic skills for those who need them or those who simply wish a review.

In defense of this Forum, I think that access to a good teacher...even on the Internet...is far better than any amount of personal time spent with a poor teacher. But it is ultimately up to the student to sort this out.

Many members have sadly indicated that they do not have access to a teacher or the money to pursue private instruction and that this Forum is very important in their artistic development.

We are fortunate enough to have some really talented pros and semi-pros participate here who are willing to donate their time and attention to those who are struggling. And according to the feedback, I think that they have made a positive difference to many.

The "Subject specific demo" section depends on those of us who are teachers. If you have a specific and helpful topic to share that can benefit others, and you are willing - without recompense - to support a fellow artist in the struggle to improve their skill, you will not have wasted your time.

Good call, Michele and Karin, and nice segue, Karin. This really rounds out the thread. The matter of providing demos on