A fair number of people doing very fine work do this, largely because instruction on the mechanical aspects of proper materials and methods of applying paint has been neglected if not abandoned outright for decades.

That's certainly true. My apologia for delving into the wherefore of materials is that we can't always be at the easel . . . it's a perverse "hobby", rather like the mason making bricks in his spare time.

I think Marvin was worried I'd poison his beer . . .

Marvin,

With all due respect to the test of ages vis-a-vis materials I do think that there should be some contemporary indepedent testing done.

I think we have sometimes an emotional attachment to methods and materials, rather than one that is reflected in good research.

Tested to death, why they have not even been tested at all in relationship to contemporary use. I know it is not romantic, but I for one would like to know more. I thank Richard for his contribution as well as yours. Both of you are very knowlegeable artists.

I just talked Dr Everett Crisman,meta-materials specialist, my hubby. He agrees that you have gone to the right people for your research. He does have some tests you can do, if you haven't already done them.

I think gaining information about the longevity of art products is only valid in relation to the interest the artist has in it. Too much concern about artwork conservation on the part of the artist can, in some cases, inhibit the artist.

I don't endorse painting with and on just anything, but going too far in the other direction can colour your thinking when you are actually painting the painting, I am sure. And worrying about getting an equivalent for a colour that has gone out of existence or is transient can be an obstacle to really seeing what's going on in the painting before you.

What I mean here is that if you couldn't get find perfect cadmium orange, for example, and instead took a colour that was "near enough" you might find that the subtle difference may open up new paths that sweep you to greater heights than you ever expected. I know I am just a young unknown, and, after this post, I suppose a young upstart, but my best and most exciting discoveries happened when, for instance, I hadn't primed properly and when scraping off some of my work found that the painting started peeling to it's core, but what was left was just the image, the suggestion of a figure, I had been searching for for about a year and a half. If I hadn't been slapdash I would never had broken through to this new level, and might never have had my first gallery break and might have given up painting altogether.

The same with colour. My "Mother and Child" painting would not have come about if I hadn't run out of yellow ochre and had to resort to cadmium yellow and orange - colours I had hardly used before. At first they seemed so wrong, so alien, but suddenly, after changing the rest of colours to work with them, everything made brilliant new sense. I had grown and moved on by doing this.

Forget about the alizarin. It's like trying to hang onto your childhood. You don't get to live fully in your adulthood if you do that. Perhaps the other reds don't look as jewel-like because you've organised the rest of your palette to work with alizarin.

If an artist's paintings are worth having around for thousands of years then I am sure the art conservators will have adequate will, knowledge and means of looking after them. All the work they are doing looking after the old paintings now are giving them more and more information to keep paintings in existence.

Thomasin,

I do think, that an artist's ego, especially in relationship to his work, if allowed to go on infinitely, would outlast the most adamantine materials.

For many of us who are older and especially figurative artist's, this seeming 'obsession' with materials is the result of wandering in the desert for many years. We had to pick up tiny twigs and branches of information wherever we could find them, libraries, museums, wherever. The internnet has opened up a torrent of information that was heretofore unavailable. Some of us are like kid's in a candy store.

I have to agree that some of of this worrying about longevity and the right color can be obsessive and down right silly. However I do like JUST the right shade of a color, not close, but exact. Alizarin has been an important red in portrait and figurative painting, even though it was known to be somewhat fugitive because of the perfect match to the deep rich wines that are found in the shadows of human skin. It is also a wonderful cheek colorant.

Some of us are more concerned than others about materials, colors and longevity, but the internet and the discussions therein are but a menu to choose from.

I think that Thomasin has a real point here.

I'm grateful that there are artists and manufacturers in the world who consider themselves to be "keepers of the flame" in regard to sound choices in artists' materials and sound painting practices. It's knowledge that needs to be researched, documented and passed on, partly because a lot of it was very nearly lost.

But there lurks in the discussion sometimes an implication that painting materials--especially in the discussion of oils--are fragile and delicate creatures and that if one is to use them one needs to walk on eggshells. Oil painting is an extremely robust and resilient medium, forgiving of experimentation. My fear is that some potentially transcendent images will remain unexpressed because we engender in artists an unnecessary timidity about procedure. Reasonable care with archival procedure will produce a hardy and durable result.

To Marvin's point, the art that belittled or ignored sound procedure in the past doesn't survive and I agree with that assessment, but I also resist the implication--not necessarily Marvin's--that there is an extremely narrow line that can be walked in regard to materials and application. It's more complex than that; I would submit that the really great art that survives today was created by a wide spectrum of both artistic attitude and approach to technique and materials. And I would also agree with Thomasin that part of the reason that the great art of the past survives was that the images were transcendent and moving enough that someone valued them and saw to it that they were protected.

I once heard Burt Silverman say, "Concentrate on making great art, and if it's good, someone will be around to take care of it." This makes a lot of sense to me.

I don't believe we ought to be oblivious to sound procedure, or that experimentation and innovation depends on ignoring it. This is the conceit of a childish iconoclast that prizes rebelliousness for its own sake. But sometimes on this forum we get inquiries that sound like there are neophyte painters out there who are paralyzed with fear about technique and the "rules," and I'd hate to see the next "Juan de Pareja" go unpainted for this reason.

By now you know that I'm a Centrist in most things, so I expect that my moderate attitude toward this discussion will be unsatisfactory to artists on both ends of the spectrum. I'm comfortable with that.

(PS...I've occasionally cooked with flaxseed oil. It's really not bad.)

Human skin is as varied in colour as the reds available in oil paints today.



Sharon, I am not arguing for argument's sake, and I have actually gleaned a great deal from your (and other's) discussions of paint and art products. So I do thank you very much for that. I think that one should pursue one's interests if they are really enjoyed i.e painting material research in your case. But this is where my point lies. I believe in a sort of gracious hedonism when it comes to life. Leave unnecessary suffering to your school years where you were forced to adapt yourself to someone else's idea of how to be and what to do. If you can't happily fit yourself to the world (and someone else's palette prescription), then make a change so that they fit to you. But this goes for the pursuit of the seemingly impossible too - the perfect heavenly red; the perfect heavenly image. If it thrills you, it thrills you. This suffering of choice, this toil, then, becomes your hedonism.

I am championing a person's own personal choices and his/her right to practice them. I think that working according to received rules is valuable only if it directs you further towards your own personal vision. If a rule has any truth and relevance about it then it will come into effect in your work anyway. I may, after running out of whatever paint I am using at the time, come around to alizarin and wonder how I ever lived without it, but not now. And for you it's the opposite, and I respect that very much. I think that to achieve as much of a state of grace and glory through art as one can, one should be both unbudging and also open to change when needs honestly be.

I haven't painted for a week looking at this forum!

You're hardly a nervous Nelly, Sharon (and you know that). It's your boldness and passion that make me want to take up this discussion.

Hee hee...point taken, Sharon.

(Though there was a tussle in there somewhere about oil.)

Tom, hurrah for the centrists! They keep us balanced.

Thomasin, do you really think anyone on this forum has the motive (even if they owned the power) to "force" others to accept their choices? Your comment about working to rules is sensible only as it appertains to stylistic and aesthetic choices. When working with physical materials, you're bound by physical rules. You may be in emptional denial of gravity, but if you jump off a 10-story building, you'll still be just as dead.

Here's the good news: As Tom points out, painting in oils is forgiving enough that it's pretty hard to use any of the materials commonly employed to the point of failure. Even the most flagrant violations of proper techniques of application will last plenty long enough to be seen, stored, then tossed in the landfill.

Here's better news: The actual craft of applying paint in a workmanlike manner to insure the best (archival) results is not rocket-science. The materials necessary to ply the trade are simple and few.

And finally, I know I'm dangerously addicted to leaping into the breach to spill everything I know about materials and painting, because on fora such as this one, perennially one encounters questions about materials which should be dirt-simple, but confuse folks who are doing good work, because the systematic teaching of a few simple procedures and the nature of a few simple materials has not been taught for decades. I think they deserve answers, and discussions like this provide that. I'm certainly not always right, but I'm always sincere.

Shame on you! Get back to work ! (and happy painting!)

I apologise for going on about something that no-one was really arguing about in the first place. Too much morning coffee and not enough painting to keep me sane. I humbly took up my paint brush and blew the dust off my alizarin crimson (although really I suppose I should be taking the wrapping off my newly-bought Pyrolo Ruby or Maimeri Puro's Crimson Lake 174) and indeed got back to work. (well, until now, of course)

:D
I was thinking today that artists should abandon the semblance of communication in the various internet art fora and just link together a network of blogs. Then it occured to me that a painting, for all practical purposes, is a form of a blog, whether or not we have visual literacy.

(Sorry for the digression; I have really enjoyed reading the comments on this thread. I like Pyrollo Ruby, too.)

Scientists Help Restore Aging Artworks
 

I just read this article, Scientists Help Restore Aging Artworks , on a new development in artwork restoration.

Perhaps we can just list the colours we use on the back of the canvas, then, and all will be ok ;).

I wonder, though, this going over with actual paint - does it make for merely a very accurate copy. Wouldn't the inimitable genius in the brushtrokes be lost? And then the importance of a piece be lessened. Maybe you are right, Sharon, to cover yourself when to comes to keeping colours true and long-lived when you are creating your own work.

I don't have a current price list from Doak. The one I have is over a year old, so if late developments have driven up the price on those pigments, he may be "up" too.

SP is still available to buy from online . . . only the forum has become a subscription proposition. No worries if you call to order on the phone, I don't think Rob filled orders anyway, unless you asked specifically for him . . .

The last price list I have from Doak lists pyrol ruby red at $35 for the small tube. His phone numbers are:
718-237-1210 and 718-237-0146

. . . ! no hay de que! (es un placer)