Joy:

About your idea for a paint from life portrait competition ... I pulled the following from this thread: "Darts - possible career path?"

http://forum.portraitartist.com/show...ighlight=Darts


Iron Chef

I think I found my genius, he

I'm not even sure where this 4-digit hall of fame is, and I've been here a while. I think I've seen it somewhere, though.

Mike, are you saying you think a paint-from-life event would turn into a highly subjective, subsidized, media circus? It might. Actually, I was picturing artists fighting for the best view, and then the one with the best composition (because he/she got the best view) would have a much better shot at winning. I like the idea of painting from life--maybe having an event--but I wonder whether the finalists of the Smithsonian O-B Competition would necessarily be the ones who were best at it. What about all the other people who didn't make the finals? Some of them, at least, might be just as good or better, but they'd never get a chance.

What I'm thinking is maybe we need different competitions, some with an entire theme of painting from life, and others that emphasize different aspects of portraiture. Basically we just need more portrait competitions, exhibition opportunities, and events altogether.

I also watch the oh-so-fasinating Iron Chef along with a professional cake making contest for pastry chefs ( I am dead serious about this one folks) and Mike... I have had the exact thoughts that you so eloquently shared above!!!.... Well, except for the Marvin and Viagra thing...

I say let's do this thing and may the best & fastest brush win! (what will we win?)

It sure beats the local "Monster Truck Pulls" my town hosts on the weekends.

Joy Thomas
www.portraitartist.com/thomas

Alex,

I had some of my workshop students do a fun thing...we had to travel from one easel to the next, each artist took a large sketchpad to each spot and had only 30 minutes to work that view before the timer went off and we had to move to the next spot. It was a blast .

In painting, palettes could be handheld and we could have a panel or canvas near each easel and just kept rotating so each artist would have few views of the model going at one time. Very intense and terrifically invigorating! I Like It -I Like It

Joy Thomas

Sounds great!

Mike I would put Mattelson, Whitaker, Joy Thomas and Liberace on the platform...

Oh and I used to like the British Fat Ladies...

We can only hope.

My original complaint, as I tried to lay out in my "Darts" thread, had to do with fact that our present day prestigious portrait competitions pay a mere fraction of what some bloke could win in an English pub dart competition.

Having pondered the complaint, I believe that it comes down to one basic difference - PROCESS. In all these events, whether it be darts, the newly found TV poker, Wimbledon tennis etc., the difference between them and our competitions is that the audience is let in on the process. The mass audience (you have to gather enough of them together so that you can sell them soap, beer, deodorant and such) becomes involved, and are let in on how the final product was achieved. In some cases they are able to second guess as to what they might do next. Ever watched "Who wants to be a millionaire?"

What do we offer? Here, this is what I did, how do you like it? All the stages of planning and execution are kept from the viewing public. Is there any wonder there is such a small audience for what we do.

If Iron Chef Hiroyuki Sakai (sp) can develop a cult following in the U.S. of A. for butchering and cooking sea urchin roe on TV, why not Marvin Mattleson and Karen Wells for creating something of lasting beauty?

I think the answer lies in exposing the process to the public. Not in an academic, dry thirty minute how to video, but in an all out paint to the death competition. All this with judges that are unfair and rude, fair and articulate, sweet and ignorant. Such that the conversation around the water cooler on Monday morning goes something like: "Can you believe the background color choice the challenger made? You're not going to take down Iron Painter William Whittaker by making those kinds of choices." What if a kid said to his mother - I want to grow up to be just like Iron Painter Daniel Greene.

Would it hurt anyones feelings if the price of portraits suddenly took off like a Florida beach front condo? All boats rise with the incoming tide.

How about a documentary featuring five painters, showing the actual hairpulling and angst that goes into creating a portrait worthy of praise. With all the blood and gore, self flagellation, and vicious wipe-outs? Who would the director be? Quentin Tarantino, Stephen Speilberg, Dirty Harry? I see an Oscar in the future.

You rock, Mike!

Jean

I agree, Mike.

Most people are mesmerized by the process NOT the product. I have painted in public more times than I can count (not a challenge for the faint of heart) and once the thing is signed the show is over. Everyone loves to see a creative process and they will watch anything, there are TV shows that star TATTOO artists for heaven' sake...and just last night, I caught a few minutes of a chocolate candy making competition.

A competition like this would be fun and educational. I know we all squirm over the aesthetics of such a thing but an audience of rubes is better than no audience at all.

What's more it would be the perfect venue to challenge the stereotype of the "accomplished artist". Regular "paint-offs" with big prize money would have real talent crawling out of the woodwork...(young & old, men & women) because it doesn't take muscle to successfully wield a loaded brush...it just takes virtuosity.

Joy Thomas
www.portraitartist.com/thomas

[QUOTE=Jean Kelly]How about a documentary featuring five painters, showing the actual hairpulling and angst that goes into creating a portrait worthy of praise.


This is a great idea!!!...and while we're at it, let's include the details of a commission, from the signing of the contract, to traveling to location, to the sittings, to the unveiling and finally to the bank where exasperated bankers are waiting for payments on that credit line!

It's way better than a soap opera!

Joy Thomas
www.portraitartist.com/thomas

Bank? What bank? Banks lend to artists? You've got to be kidding! My bank is the "International Bank of the Long Suffering abd Patient Husband". ;)

Jean

Loans to artists
 

I hear you loud and clear Jean.

18 years ago, I approached my local bank for a loan to build a studio on my property. I was armed with a year's worth of signed commission contracts complete with down payments. The bank was carrying the note on our farm and house and knew how much equity my husband and I had. The loan officer (someone I knew well) said, "Joy, I would fell more comfortable about this if you would bring in your husband or father."

Mind you, I was (and still am) the bread winner of the family...my husband worked for me full time and "my Daddy" had not had anything to do with my finances since the day I left home after graduating from high school!. My father had never even lived in the vicinity!

So my husband went to the local lumber yard (this was before the days of Lowe's or Home Depots here) and struck a deal with them to finance the materials so we could set about building the studio by ourselves.

A few years and many unveilings later. We went to the bank again ...this time we mortgaged everything we owned...even so, the maximum we could borrow was just $72,000. In just one year, we spent every penny on additional training, an ad campaign, a web site, brochures and advertising through magazines. It did serve to boost my career, I received national commissions as my work came to the attention of important collectors. In the years that followed we continued to take those same kinds of financial risks.

I have supported my family entirely "by the brush" for more than 20 years now with my husband (and master framer) of 27 years working full time with me. We are both from poor families who do not support (or even approve) of our good efforts as artists.

It has been a modest, bohemian lifestyle... (albeit colorful, exciting and intellectually stimulating). It was a challenge to raise our three children with such an unstable income. They learned to be clever, working their way through school and earning academic scholarships. Our children are grown now and are on their own financially. Like us, they will probably never inherit money or know the security of even a modest trust fund. Perhaps they will make a little money by selling the rights to my work someday.

Looking back, we would have been better off financially by investing that borrowed money in the stock market during the 90's, but we were trying to build my career. (It truly does take money to make money, but in art...it takes money just to live as an artist and to even lose money!). Our goal was to secure important portrait commissions to insure my place in history and to make just enough money that we could continue to pursue "the artist's life".

If one has a steady income to spend on constant advertising and marketing then eventually they may flood the market with enough information that they become "a thing". But without serious funds (or the backing of someone with funds) it is unlikely that any artist will ever make much money on artistic merit alone! Women and other minorities must face the additional obstacle of prejudice and sexism.

Hang in there Jean, and give your understanding husband a big thank you.... from all of us.

Joy Thomas
www.portraitartist.com/thomas

Fascinating post, Joy. Thanks so much for sharing it.

It sounds like you found the ad campaign to have been worthwhile. Can you tell me where you advertised and what seemed to work best?

It also sounds like you're saying that an artist has to keep at it, always advertising, never letting up, in order to keep things going. Have you found that to be the case, or did those initial successes lead to enough high profile work that it was all the jump start you needed and became self sustaining after that?

That is an amazing story, I also thank you for sharing it. You both (husband and you) sound like fascinating people with a lot of guts and love for art.

My first husband was also an artist, but when it came to encouraging me or even allowing me to have some time to paint, it was "no way"!
I divorced him. My current hubby is my biggest supporter and fan. I'm a newcomer to painting (4 years), and now am disabled but I keep working. When I get discouraged I'll come back to your post, and charge forward again. I love the part about bringing in your husband or father! When will they ever get it?

Jean

I often ponder those ads, (which were in Southern Accents and Veranda.) I did secure commissions, as a result, from heavy hitters in New Orleans, Tampa, Shreveport, Nashville, Chattanooga, Dallas, Washington D.C., New York City, Martha's Vineyard and other less notable locations...however the cost of running such a campaign was so staggering that my profits were not as substantial as one might hope...but as a woman trying to enter a male dominated field, I felt I had no choice. Southern Accents was the most succesful venue for me. Indeed the ads along with a flurry of awards and articles in American Artistt magazine The Artist Magazine served to bring my work into view of many clients. Unfortunately, the costs of such ads have increased to such an extent that they are no longer a viable option for me.

I do still receive commissions, through word of mouth from past portrait commissions that I received from the ads.

I think the most important advertising is to secure high profile portraits (like the one you painted of the Governor!) and then make sure to put lots of press releases out about it. Then you will be seen as "bona-fide" in the eyes of collectors...and competitors. Your own response to that sort of success must be swift...that is why I suggested you use the Governor's portrait as a segway to higher fees, to let clients know that as you move UP so too will your fees.

Joy Thomas
www.portraitartist.com/thomas

Good for you, Jean...I think it's important to move away from those who discourage us as we attempt to "follow our bliss".

I'm glad you found my story useful, it does take some guts to do this, unless of course one is independently wealthy, on the other hand, I can't imagine life without my art...can you?

Joy Thomas
www.portraitartist.com/thomas

Thanks, Joy. Hearing about your experiences is very helpful!

No Joy, I can't imagine life without art now, it's as important to me as breathing.

Jean

Joy thank you so much for sharing your struggles and career experience wit us. I truly understand your struggles and my hat off to you and your husband for supporting you. Many couples forget that they are to be as one and work through all things together.

I hope I am not out of place and others will not mind if I take a moment to share some personal things with you.
Some years ago I was in a motorcycle accident from which I did not fully recover. As a result I was not able to continue my career in the field I was in at that time. So, God helped me recover and opened the way for me to pursue a new career a career in the humanitarian field. I was in the humanitarian field for some ten years. The work was quite rewarding but I noticed that if I was to continue I would be putting my health at serious risk.

After some serious thought I decided to invest my savings in to art education. Many thought me bold for taking this step but beside my passion for art my reasoning was that I can take my work with my anywhere.

Being that I am from Europe I found an art academy in Florence. I spent 2.5 years, a year and a half short of the full four year program, at The Angel Academy of Art. I still have a few things to learn, color, in order to have the basics down but as we all know it is a on going process.

To echo the statement of others I to cannot imagine life without art.

What do you think about doing a few freebies for prominent individuals to get ones name out there?

Thank you again for sharing your experiences and your time with us.

mischa

This has been one of the most curious introductory threads I have ever visited.
I think this should be move to the Cafe Guerbois Discussions section. What do you think Michele? (just kidding!)
I can clearly see Garth counting the digits anxiously!

By the way...
 

By the way... 1000 visits Garth!

Freebies
 

Our 19 year old son is shopping for a motorcycle at this time and I am in a panic...I wish you would share your story. I want to discourage him.

I looked at your website and was delighted to see your sensitive works...many I feel (if not all) are from life...correct? Your aesthetic committment and financial investment has paid off and now you are ready to market.

You should not give this fine work away. You may offer it at a fund-raising auction for a worthy cause (do you have those?) Just make sure to set a minimum bid and arrange to keep half of that minimum for yourself, the other 1/2 and anything over the minimum goes to the charity. I have success with this.

18 years or more ago, when I was first attempting to build a client base, I made many appointments to show my works to prominent individuals, those with the correct change of course.

If they responded favorably to my work, I would then show them examples by other, more famous, artists (some were even my mentors) I would also show them their fees...and watch as they gasped. Then I would place my own more modest pricelist down to help them relax as I appealed to them to sit for me that I might begin to gain respect of others & secure more commissions as a result. I explained that I had selected them based on their standing in the community and because I was confident that their endorsement would boost my career.

I asked for 50% upon the signing of the contract...the balance due upon delivery of the completed work. When they expressed delight and enthusiasm over the completed portrait(s) I would suggest that they host an unveiling party so I could introduce the work and myself to a new client base, for further encouragement I offered to forgive the final 50% payment if they would help me we secure two commissions with down payments by the end of their unveiling party.

I modeled this approach after Tupperware and Mary Kay parties by the way...are you familiar with those?

Those were fast and furious days, even though I had more rejections than takers... now that I am one of the expensive artists, everyone that turned me down, expresses their regret. Those who took the opportunity thank me profusely when we chance to meet.

Portraits for everyone!
Go for it!


Joy Thomas
www.portraitartist.com/thomas

Joy, I can see that you are also a master marketer. Some great ideas here!

I do love marketing, Michele...I often wonder if I missed my calling by not going into it as a career in and of itself.

I do not understand why artists are uncomfortable placing a suitable price on their hardwon talent. It seems easy enough to do the math when looking at a client's lifestyle and material wealth, the car(s) they drive, the watches they wear and so on. In the matter of official portraits, there is typically a budget in place. In my experience those budgets are more generous than one might guess.

My marketing approach now is to stress my accomplishments, dependability and successful track record. My contract is completely in my favor, I make all aesthetic decisions and I will not make changes.

That level of confidence is contagious to one's clients especially if one has the skill to back it up, don't you think?



Joy Thomas
www.portraitartist.com/thomas

This is for Mischa...
 

If I were you, I'd copy this sentence and paste it in my website...

This is for Mischa as well
 

I am not a good marketer, nor am I fabulously well known in the portrait art world but when I do get a commission, or sell a painting, the client pays for it well. Find other ways to supplement you income, anything.

There is a good article in Harpers magazine this month explaining the difference between the player and the worker. it is a bit complex to explain here, but the player, who does not produce anything and usually has the money, tries to get as low a price from the worker (the person who actually produces something). The player, (stockbroker, politician, CEO), generally has contempt for the worker.

I find that if I ask what I think are high prices, the client has MORE respect for me. What I found is they like to brag about HOW much they paid for it, or in the worse case, how they snookered the artist.

High falutin' charity auctions is a good way to get your name known. One of the best marking ploys I have heard on this site is used by Linda Brandon. She offers only a charcoal drawing done from life. It is a win-win situation. If the client only wants the sketch, you get a free live model, if they want an upgrade, you have a full commission only subtracted by the price of the sketch which goes to charity.

I wonder, Joy, if you would be so kind as to post a copy of your contract? The Business and Marketing section of this Forum would probably be the best place. My contract could probably use some updating and I'd love to see what you have in place.

In a former life I was a marketing and sales person in a couple of high tech firms. I think that's why I'm comfortable with it, and sometimes it's a nice change after being at the easel for days at a stretch.

I've thought long and hard about my pricing. Until very recently all my commisions have been in the Seattle area, where painted portraiture is almost completely unknown and is compared with portrait photography when it comes to the price. I find I need to sit down and clarify with my clients exactly why this is several times more expensive than what they can get at the local photo studio. Sometimes they get it and sometimes they don't.

That's the marketing spirit, Claudemir!
And I thank you for the compliment., you are most kind.

Joy Thomas
www.portraitartist.com/thomas

Players VS Workers
 

I've spent a lot of time thinking about this concise observation concerning pricing, Sharon...and I have found this to be true as well.

Thanks for mentioning the article..it is a good idea for artists to become familiar with economics, workers rights, union activities, pay scales and so on in the industrial world because professional artists that accept commissions are workers in fact...(without labor organizations to offer protection or negotiate pay)...and like other skilled professionals, they need to be aware of the existing market and know how their "product" compares to the competition.

As a self-employed artist I try to remember that I have entered this profession at great financial risk. Health care, retirement, paid vacation, workman's compensation and the many other benefits that state employees or factory workers enjoy are simply not available to the self-employed artist. With those factors in mind, I set down every quarter and take a hard look at my taxes to determine how much I am really making per year. Typically the results are not actually very impressive when compared to other highly skilled specialists.

Extensive training and years of practice are required to develop the skill set one needs to become an accomplished portraitist. When well executed the product is uniquely rare and will become more valuable with time. Fees should reflect that.

I'll be happy to do that...I don't have it in a document form in my computer...so I'll put it together this weekend at some point.

It is a very delicate balance the artist has to negotiate between the client and him or herself . Often the artist is poor and needs the commission badly. This puts the artist on the defensive both artistically and financially. I have noticed that we often explain our fees ad infinitum, as if we ourselves are guilty of charging SUCH an exorbitant fee. We all to often think it is a large fee vis-a-vis our own perspective. We often quake inwardly (at least I do) when coming in contact with extreme wealth, I don't mean Mercedes, I mean Bentleys and Rolls. Just give them the fee as confidently as you can, try NOT to bargain, it makes you look needy.

I here a lot of whining on this site about how little one gets for a piece of work. The reason I quoted Joy above is that all too often the artist has NOT done the heavy lifting required to become an accomplished artist. If you look a the really big stars in the business, whether you like their work or not, they all have tremendous skill sets. All of them can accomplish their portraits from life. Today the artist has his back against the wall in this regard because clients refuse to sit today. They know all too often all the artist has to do is snap their picture and they are of the hook time-wise. However, a portrait artist worth his salt SHOULD be able to accomplish this.

These are great ideas, and great reminders. Thanks for posting them. The great thing about this Forum is that these subjects always seem to pop up just when I need a kick in the right place.

I told my husband about this thread. He said IF they don't like the price and don't think it is worth it, tell them to do it themselves. Add that you will be by from time to time to help them out.

Joy, sorry for not responding sooner. Had problems with my laptop. It was infected with 29GB of zipped files and spy ware. Had to re-install everything.

From early childhood I knew no boundaries. Brought up in a country town, more in the country than the town, I experienced the joys of a farm and country life stile. Sure, while growing up, I envied the kids that lived in the city but these same kids envied me. Their plenty could not measure up to the simplicities and the small pleasures that a life in the county offers. I guess that is why now days we have commuters (we run to the city to work and right back out to the country in order to enjoy the peace an nature). Don't get me wrong the city life has its charm. I know for most of my adult life was spent in the city.

I raced cars, motorcycles (not professionally) and was quite wild according to todays standards. In the sumer of 1989 I sat on back of a motorcycle with a friend and not but a few blocks from my home the accident o-curd. Some young man with his car caused the accident and I and my friend ended-up in the Emergency ward. It tuck but a second at an intersection and my friend who was driving the bike ended up with a punctured lung and busted wrist. My friends life was in grave danger and the doctors had doubts whether I was to walk again. My spine was fractured. We did survive and I am walking again thank God but our life at least mine will never be the same. There are many thing in life that I enjoyed prier the accident which never will I be able to again. Honestly though, many a times I considered getting another bike but decided against it. I have come to realize that in life there are so many thing that are as exciting if not more than riding a bike. My younger brother has a K1100 and I do take it out for a spin when the urge is strong. Riding in a car can never be a substitute but I must measure the importance of life. I have come to realize that in the cage of a car I have a better chance of surviving in order to enjoying the simple things in life.

Joy, thank you for visiting my website. Yes, most all is done from life. I do enjoy copying some inspirational photos and also the works of the masters of old and masters of today. I find that I can learn much this way.

I am not sure how involved the pilers of Bad Homburg are in fund raising. I am sure they are and I curtainlly will take your advice. It will be my pleasure to help them along being that I have some experience in the humanitarian field. I know for a fact that Germany allocates millions each year for humanitarian aid and projects.

One of my draw backs is that I am just getting to know the German language and the area. So, I must work doubly hard if I plan to make a living from my art.

I have heard of Mary Kay and Tupperware but do not know of the marketing procedures. I do like Mary Kay's idea, your suggestion, of the unveiling part and will do my best to put it into effect when ever possible.

That is correct, "Portraits for everyone!"

Joy, thank you for being who you are and for sharing with us.

Mischa

p.s. how many posts you have now?

Claudemir, I will take your suggestion and post Joys quote on my website. Thanx for the idea and thank you Joy for giving me permission. I still need to get to my page somehow. Just in the process of getting thing back in order after a big crash.Yuk!

Sharon, thank you for the words of encouragement. My motto is, if you cannot afford it than you ought not have it.

My policy is to leave room for negotiations and that does not include lowering my price. So, what did you have in mind would be my question for the potential client.

I need to setup my price list which I have not done yet. So, Joy I will be looking forward to see what you have.

Joy--Hi & welcome!! So nice to have you on the forum :)

(Sorry I'm late to the party... I've been distracted and mostly away from the computer for the past couple of weeks.)

Hi Joy,

I join the ranks of late-comers in welcoming you.

I spend so much time reading the forum that I don't often take the time to post. I must make a point of participating more so I can get to know the wonderful people on here.

I have really been enjoying all your posts. Thanks for sharing.

Cynthia

Mischa, Thank you for sharing your story and your work.

Perhaps you've already read that I live on a farm in rural Kentucky...I do love the city, just as much actually, and would be happy living in one. It is my husband that is so attached to the land and farm life and I must admit, it is quite lovely and cozy here...so for now I simply travel to the airport (2 hours away!) and fly to location for commissions.

I'm going to tell our youngest son about your motorcycle experience. He has spent his life worrying me with his pursuits..an award winning offensive football player and soccer goalie in high school, he is now playing Rugby in college. I can't count how many times we've been through MRI's and x-rays due to sports injuries, no broken bones yet, so he's beginning to feel invincible. My guess is that he will proceed with the purchase, but maybe with more caution.

Where do you live in relationship to Bad Godesburg and Bonn? We once hosted an exchange student from there. He actually came to our town through the University exchange program in town. He had dreamed of a true rural American experience, you know....the Daniel Boone, Davy Crockett, Annie Oakley thing...hunting and fishing, splitting firewood and preparing one's own food etc. A professor friend brought him to visit our farm and then he kept coming back. Our 3 children were all still at home and family and friends were constantly dropping by. He fit right in with our family and loved our big potlucks.

One overnight became a week until he asked to move in for the remainder of his exchange. He went hunting and rode horses, he learned to skin, prepare and cook squirrel, rabbit and venison, he gardened, fished, robbed beehives, made bread, read to me while I worked in the studio and he even modeled.

After his year was complete and we were preparing to take him to the airport, he approached me with my large portfolio in his hands and asked if he could take it back to Germany to share with his family and friends, he promised to return it by post, so I agreed.

A week or two later, he called from Germany to tell me that his family had unanimously decided to commission me to do "portraits for everyone". As it turned out, his family owned a large optical franchise and collected art!! He had never told us that and lead us to believe that he was from a regular working class family...he always seemed short of money! They flew me to Bonn and met me at the airport. Parents, grandparents, cousins, and siblings showered me with flowers, food, wine, beer and my own guest apartment with studio space. I completed seven commissions in one month all from life . The paintings included landscapes, still lifes and portraits. Family and friends set up schedules so they could watch me at work during the day... and then we would sight see and party at night and on the weekends. What fun we had!!!

One of the excursions we took was to Worpswede in Lower Saxony, Germany, near the city of Bremen. It is in Northern Germany near Holland. If you haven't been to that historic artist's colony you should plan to go there for a few days...I had been researching it 's history and the impact the "Naturalists" that worked there had on the realist art movement during the turn of the last century. As a plein air painter myself, I was particularly interested in the work of Fritz Mackensen, Otto Modersohn among others...including poet Ranier Maria Rilke. He wrote a book about the area in which he described it as "a strange land. If one stands on the small sandy hill in Worpswede, one can see it spread out all around, like the farmer's cloths that show deep vivid flowers against a dark background. It lies flat, almost without a fold, and the paths and waterways lead far into the horizon. There a sky of indescribable variations and magnitude begins".

When I asked my hosts to take me there, they had never been themselves! So we formed a caravan and made reservations for a weekend. If you have already been there I'm sure you found it inspirational, if not...then you simply must go, it will be a life changing experience...and be sure to take the short side trip to:

Otto Modersohn Museum
In der Bredenau 95
28870 Fischerhude
T (04293) 328
F (04293) 1435
info@modersohn-museum.de
www.modersohn-museum.de

Enjoy and be sure to post your experience for us!

Terri, thank you for the welcome, I took a look at your website and especially liked Girl with Violin, Boy with Dog and Boy with Trombone. I think you need to increase your fees!

Cynthia, thank you for the welcome...how may I see your work?

Joy, I just realized that I have never posted anything in the unveilings section or much of anything for that matter. I currently have a work in progress posted titled "Marriage of Ceremonies". (would love your input) and a piece in the critiques section, "Leigh". The date is 3-19-2005 - maybe that will help you find it since I don't know how to link to it. Also my member intro (3-29-2005) has one of my watercolors.
Thanks for asking :)