Pack
 

I must pack for Raleigh now. I'll check in when I get back from the workshop. I'll be curious to see what is here when i get back.

Tim,
would this critique possibility be open to everyone here ?

Allan

Welcome
 

I think that would be great. You'll have to ask Marvin though. A cadmium or full palette as compared to an earth palette. If you wish to critique place your work next to mine or next to a dead master you admire. I you want to critique you must place you own work next to the one you are speaking of-okay? How's that sound?

Moderators, should we do this elsewhere?

I'd like to see that, as well. It might prove very educational for us struggling self-taught folks.

(Minh grabs his heart) "Aaaaackkkk! Did Mr. Mattelson just say what I think he said? Aaaaaaahhhhh!!!!!" :o

Minh

Tim, impressing you to my way of thinking is not what I'm trying to do. Why exactly are you putting your paintings next to Bouguereau? Is there a point to this? He uses different colors than you. It makes no sense to me.

No, I didn't post my painting for a critique, I believe there is a critique section here for that purpose. You suggested to Wilma that she look at the work of award winning artists to ascertain whether she felt their palettes deserved another look. This was posted as a courtesy to her.

As for comparing your paintings to mine, I'll let the people viewing this thread have the pleasure of doing so. They can say anything they please. I'm happy to let my work stand on it's own, but I do think that its quite generous of you to offer up your work for criticism.

Mihn, I have my students use my adaptation of the Reilly palette. Minh, you heard my opinion correctly.

Alan, I couldn't agree more.

Marvin and Tim,

Having been here awhile....

I am very proud of you gentlemen. What civility! And on a subject that is clearly something you are both passionate about. I think it takes a lot of class to be able to disagree in ways that do not result in .... ugly exchanges.

This discussion can be very very informative and I appreciate it - so continue with your wonderful manners and let us all absord the various opinions being spoken of.

:)

Just to clear, I said, I'd be glad to compare mine with yours side by side. I did NOT offer these up for general critique UNLESS you want to do so too with yours as well. Read carefully. It could be fun & educational -we could do it for the students, Marv.

Come on... :)

Tim, since you posted your images here as part of this discussion on color, I assume you welcome a critique of it?

Tim. I believe that simply by posting your paintings here in this public forum, and by the above comments - not to mention the entire context of this thread - you already have "offered these up for general critique." Seriously, can anyone refrain now from comparing your three paintings to Marvin's Samantha? Or your paintings to the Bouguereau you posted? The only question is: do you want to hear what other people are thinking? Or do you only want Marvin to respond?

I'm not sure what your point is in all this, or what you're driving at...?

Firstly
 

Marvin posted his work first. Second I am willing to post one of my works for one of anyone with a earth palette side by side.

Reminder to all: This is not the critique section. Only works posted under the appropriate critique category are open to be critiqued by other artists.

Again
 

You already have.

I know I have probably seen it, but could point me toward it one more time? Thanks Mr. M.

(flat on the floor ... still clutching at his chest) "Ahhhhhh ... aaaaahhhhhh!" :o

Minh

Alphonse William Bouguereau
 

The only I posted side by side was WB and he won't mind.

Opinions are only that. There are no perfect palettes. If there were everyone would use that palette. As I said, there are books listed here for sale that list numerous versions of great palettes. Great art can be made from 6 colors or from 36.

When Marvin posted this very fine portrait of Samantha after discussion of the earth color flesh palette, I felt it provided an excellent example of what may be accomplished using this palette. And, I think, that was exactly the intention. Clearly, it was not designed to one-up anybody nor invite critique.

I am not a general practitioner of the "Paxton" palette, myself (though I've tried my hand at it & am still working on it). Be that as it may, I not only see the merit of exploring such an alternative, I also see from the works of other accomplished artists that the use of such a palette may be successful. That said, I, for one, would not deign to invite debate over the usefulness of one palette versus another except if a particular palette was plainly deficient in the face of a much more successful one. So, to pit Bouguereau's palette versus Sargent's is inviting more opinion than anything else. We can derive a person's aesthetic leanings from such a debate, but little technical difference in what would be considered "success."

To truly realize the breadth and power of any of the aforementioned artists, I advocate bearing live witness to any of their works as opposed to seeing a poor and/or manipulated reproduction on one's monitor. Only then can we see the vibrating, translucent effects of painted skin for what they truly are.

Michele - We appreciate the reminder.

I am posting my painting of Samantha in the critique section.

Head by Rembrandt
 

If this is successful, there will be an image of a Rembrandt head here. His palette is known to have included lead white, lead-tin yellow, earth reds and yellows, umber, cassel earth, bone black, red and sometimes yellow lakes. No cadmiums, of course, since they did not exist in his time, and very rarely vermilion. His brighter reds were more often earth reds with red lakes mixed in (madder or cochineal).

Virgil Elliott

The Origin of Greatness
 

"I've got the best palette in the whole world!"

"No, mine is better than yours!"

"Mine can wip yours any day!"

"Can not!"

"Can too!"

"You'd better shut up or I'm telling my mom!"

Scott thanks so much for pointing this out to me.

My pigment vendor can whip your linseed supplier with one hand tied around his easel? :bewildere

Minh

(But still .... Zorn "second tier"? [clutching chest again] "Aaauuuuugh!" :o )

Mihn, I would group Zorn along with Sargent, although I favor Zorn a little more. Second tier in the pantheon is no small potatoes. Remember this is just my pantheon.

Fair enough ... I prefer Leffel portraits to Kinstler, and that would give most folks an aneurysm. :D

Minh

Marvin

I think trying to compare Zorn, Sargent and Sorolla to Bouguereau is like comparing apples to oranges. They are 2 completely different types of painters, which I am sure you are aware of. I don't think Bouguereau could even come close to painting FROM LIFE in the ALLA PRIMA method that Zorn and Sargent could do. And I think the reverse about long, finished paintings... Bouguereau was a master of this. He was a master subtlety in skin tones. These artists were going after something different, as I think you and Tim are. You guys are both fantastic artists and it would be ashame to try and compare the 2 of your works side by side in a comparison of sorts. 2 different methods of painting, both ways are effective because they are effective for the individual artist.

This whole debate in this thread reminds me of the scene from "Lust for Life" where Kirk Douglas (playing Van Gogh) is arguing over palettes with Seurat and Gauguin.... if you haven't seen this movie, it's a classic!!!! One of my all time favorites.

My point is this, we all have passion for this thing called painting... We are all trying for the same success in painting but we are each taking different paths. Passion is the fuel of our spirits and this is what drives us.....

Keep the fires burning!
Tony

Now there's a movie begging for a modern remake. I think Kirk Douglas was wonderful in it, as was Anthony Quinn. Based on everything I've read about Vinny V., Douglas' portrayal was dead on. However, imagine modern techniques in film ... an over-the-top actor with a Dutch accent ... I would definitely pay to see that! The only movie about an artist I liked better was 'Artemesia' in French with subtitles. Awesome movie.

Minh